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  • Re: Norwich 14-15

    Originally posted by NU Pastime View Post
    I mean, it still doesn't explain why it exists. It doesn't make sense. Is something different in hockey compared to the other sports? Why spend more money on a hockey program that doesn't really have anything to compete for when you could be DIII, not give scholarships, and have more to play for? What am I missing?
    Because ...
    Last edited by norm1909; 02-22-2015, 02:08 PM.
    Larry Normandin
    SUNY Cobleskill '83-SUNY Plattsburgh '00

    Temper is one thing you can't get rid of by losing it.

    God gave everyone patience-The wise use it.

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    • Re: Norwich 14-15

      That makes more sense.
      Norwich '13

      2017-2018 Last Person Standing Champion

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      • Re: Norwich 14-15

        Originally posted by NU Pastime View Post
        That makes more sense.
        Note, other Division II schools with ice hockey choose to play as Division I programs under the higher Division I scholarship limits and can compete for the DI championship (as do some DIII schools, though no new DIII schools can choose to).
        Larry Normandin
        SUNY Cobleskill '83-SUNY Plattsburgh '00

        Temper is one thing you can't get rid of by losing it.

        God gave everyone patience-The wise use it.

        Trust is like paper - Once crumbled it can never again be perfect.

        Twitter w/ Bob Emery

        WIRY (Windows Player)
        WIRY (Chrome/Android Player)

        Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand!

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        • Re: Norwich 14-15

          Sounds like I have some research to do on the rules of divisional membership.
          Norwich '13

          2017-2018 Last Person Standing Champion

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          • Re: Norwich 14-15

            Originally posted by NU Pastime View Post
            Sounds like I have some research to do on the rules of divisional membership.
            Start here and particularly note 1994.
            Larry Normandin
            SUNY Cobleskill '83-SUNY Plattsburgh '00

            Temper is one thing you can't get rid of by losing it.

            God gave everyone patience-The wise use it.

            Trust is like paper - Once crumbled it can never again be perfect.

            Twitter w/ Bob Emery

            WIRY (Windows Player)
            WIRY (Chrome/Android Player)

            Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand!

            Pen pals

            D3HOCKEY.com

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            • Re: Norwich 14-15

              Then this (see pages 345 & 346) -

              20.8.2 Division II Options When No Division II Championship Is Conducted. An active member
              institution that holds membership in Division II is eligible to compete in the Division I championship in those
              sports for which no championship is conducted in Division II. The Division II institution shall declare its intention
              to compete by June 1. This declaration of intent shall be effective for a minimum of three years. (Revised:
              1/10/91 effective 9/1/92)
              2014-15 Division I – October 20

              DIVISION MEMBERSHIP

              20.8.2.1 Participation in Division I Championship. To be eligible for the Division I championship in
              such a sport, the Division II member institution is required to meet all Division I institutional and individual
              eligibility requirements and may use Division I financial aid limitations in that sport as permitted under Bylaw
              20.9.1.1. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 9/1/92)

              20.8.2.2 Exception for Maximum Number of Contests or Dates of Competition. A Division II member
              institution that is eligible for a championship in another division because there is no championship in that
              sport in its membership division shall apply the maximum number of contests or dates of competition in the
              sport involved that applies to the division in which it declares its intention to compete.
              Larry Normandin
              SUNY Cobleskill '83-SUNY Plattsburgh '00

              Temper is one thing you can't get rid of by losing it.

              God gave everyone patience-The wise use it.

              Trust is like paper - Once crumbled it can never again be perfect.

              Twitter w/ Bob Emery

              WIRY (Windows Player)
              WIRY (Chrome/Android Player)

              Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand!

              Pen pals

              D3HOCKEY.com

              Comment


              • Re: Norwich 14-15

                To summarize and expand upon what has been said...

                Fact #1: There are not enough DII schools sponsoring Ice Hockey to warrant the playing of a National Championship at that level.

                Fact #2: As there is no DII National Championship, all of the DII Member Schools sponsoring the sport have the opportunity to play DI Ice Hockey under all of the rules and restrictions applicable to normal DI Member Schools. Most affected schools do this.

                Fact #3: Six memebers of the Northeast 10 conference chose not to make that jump. There was another DII School (Minnesota-Crookston), but they folded their program a while ago. They techincally play DII Hockey, as there is no longer an allowance for teams to "play down". (There used to be, which is why Bemidji State has a DIII Title in their records, and Saint Cloud once played Oswego in an NCAA semifinal.) But, since there is no DII National Championship, and they are not technically playing DIII Hockey, they are not eligible to compete for any National Championship titles... Nor are they eligible to compete for Conference Championship titles that would grant an Automatic Bid into an NCAA Tournament.

                Fact #4: Much like Norwich's past game against Dartmouth, games between one of these 6 institutions and a DIII member school count for some purposes, but not others. As the opponent is an American 4-year institution, the game counts for the DIII school as a part of their 25-game limit. However, the game is not played against a DIII opponent, and as such it cannot be counted as a part of their official Win-Loss record for the purposes of NCAA Ranking consideration. Essentially, the game never happened. Recently, the record against these institutions has been introduced as a separate Secondary Criteria that can be considered, but it does not appear that the committee has needed to use it to date.

                Fact #5: Despite the odd situation these schools find the selves in, the ECAC-E has decided to allow St. Michael's and St. Anselm to compete in their conference. Their games all count for conference statistics and standings, but they are not eligible to participate in the ECAC-E Postseason Tournament.

                Fact #6: All 6 of these schools are members of the Northeast 10 Conference, and have therefore decided to sponsor their own Conference Championship Tournament. In order to do this, St. Michael's and St. Anselm must play each of their fellow DII Conference opponents once (with the first matchup between the two ECAC-E schools counting towards standings in BOTH conferences), while the remaining teams play each other 3 times each. The 1-game series each award 2 points for a win, or 1 point for a tie, while the 3-game series each award 2 points to the best-of-three winner, or 1 point for a 1-1-1 or 0-0-3 series split. This results in 4 schools playing 11 games each (the Stonehill-Assumption match cancelled due to weather was never rescheduled because Stonehill had already earned the series points), while St. Michaels and St. Anselm playing only 5 conference games in the conference in which they are eligible to compete for a postseason title and 18 games in a conference whose title they cannot win!

                Fact #7: While it is clear that, at least in the case of St. Michael's and St. Anselm, the hockey team would be much better off if the institution transitioned to DIII, that appears unlikely. Each of them has a strong Basketball program at the DII level, which would lose its prominence and profitability in any drop to DIII. Furthermore, as a part pf the transition process, the schools would have to endure a 4-year "cleansing" period in which none of their athletic programs would be eligible for any postseason play. Also, they would need to find a conference for their non-hockey sports, and that is just as daunting a task. As a result of these 3 factors, the schools have not yet made the decision to drop to DIII. There have veen repeated proposals in the DIII conventions to allow for an exception for these 6 institutions, which have been rejected by the DIII membership (all members, not jsut the 72 sponsoring Ice Hockey). Failing that, we know that at least St. Anselm has investigated the viability of a jump to Atlantic Hockey, but it looks like the administration has decided against that option for now. The only other options are to fold the program altogether (which does not benefit ANYBODY in this situation) or maintain the status quo. So it looks like nothing will be changing any time in the near future.
                Plattsburgh CARDINALS
                SUNYAC Champ x24: 78, 79, 82, 83, 85, 87, 88, 90, 92, 93, 97, 98, 99, 00, 01, 02, 04, 08, 09, 11, 12, 15, 17, 23
                ECACW Champ x11: 81, 82, 87, 92, 06, 07, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
                NEWHL Champ x5: 18, 19, 20, 22, 23
                NCAA DIII Champ x10-ish: 87, 92, 01, 07, 08, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19
                NCAA DIII Runner-up x4-ish: 86, 90, 06, 08
                NCAA DII Runner-up x2: 81, 82

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                • Re: Norwich 14-15

                  Originally posted by CARDS_rule_the_Burgh View Post
                  To summarize and expand upon what has been said...
                  ...
                  This thread will help too.
                  Larry Normandin
                  SUNY Cobleskill '83-SUNY Plattsburgh '00

                  Temper is one thing you can't get rid of by losing it.

                  God gave everyone patience-The wise use it.

                  Trust is like paper - Once crumbled it can never again be perfect.

                  Twitter w/ Bob Emery

                  WIRY (Windows Player)
                  WIRY (Chrome/Android Player)

                  Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand!

                  Pen pals

                  D3HOCKEY.com

                  Comment


                  • Re: Norwich 14-15

                    Wow, what a mess. At any rate, I very much appreciate the help in understanding this! Forgive my newbie-ness.
                    Norwich '13

                    2017-2018 Last Person Standing Champion

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                    • Another game with all different goal scorers.

                      This team's depth continues to impress.
                      The Poster Formerly Known as Purple_and_Gold10©
                      "The Prezidential Three - Elmira, Oswego, Norwich" © Joecct
                      GO EAGLES!!! R.I.P. L.H. #4 In our hearts forever
                      GO LAKERS!!!
                      GO CADETS!!! R.I.P. Charlie Crosby '63
                      "Reisweber trying to circle in front of the net, he does, HE SCORES! that's it! Oswego State has done it!! The Lakers take home the first NCAA title of any kind in school history. It's celebration time in Upstate New York!"
                      Oswego State '09

                      Comment


                      • Re: Norwich 14-15

                        Originally posted by NU Pastime View Post
                        I mean, it still doesn't explain why it exists. It doesn't make sense. Is something different in hockey compared to the other sports? Why spend more money on a hockey program that doesn't really have anything to compete for when you could be DIII, not give scholarships, and have more to play for? What am I missing?
                        Because the NCAA doesn't let schools play "down." If you want to be DII in some sports, you have have to be DII in all sports. They do have the option on competing in DI hockey because there is no DII national championship, but that is not seen as viable. Thus both St. A's and St. M's are members of both the ECAC E and the NE 10 (DII conference). They play a partial schedule in the NE-10 by using non ECAC E games to play the other four NE 10 schools, and are eligible for the NE 10 post season. There is no national championship to play for, but they can compete for a conference title in the NE 10.

                        Consider this the short version of Nate's explanation. I hadn't read it until after I posted this.
                        Last edited by NUProf; 02-22-2015, 11:11 PM.
                        2007-2008 ECAC East/NESCAC Interlock Pick 'em winner
                        2007-2008 Last Person Standing Winner,
                        2013-2014 Last Person Standing Winner (tie)
                        2016-2017 Last Person Standing Winner

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                        • Re: Norwich 14-15

                          Originally posted by NUProf View Post
                          Because the NCAA doesn't let schools play "down." If you want to be DII in some sports, you have have to be DII in all sports. They do have the option on competing in DI hockey because there is no DII national championship, but that is not seen as viable. Thus both St. A's and St. M's are members of both the ECAC E and the NE 10 (DII conference). They play a partial schedule in the NE-10 by using non ECAC E games to play the other four NE 10 schools, and are eligible for the NE 10 post season. There is no national championship to play for, but they can compete for a conference title in the NE 10.

                          Consider this the short version of Nate's explanation. I hadn't read it until after I posted this.
                          Unlike NU Pastime, I actually fully understand the rule, but it still needs to be fixed. It's going to cost us (or another ECAC-E member) very soon, come NCAA time - perhaps even this year. It's a total disaster.

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                          • Re: Norwich 14-15

                            Originally posted by KRBFLINT03 View Post
                            Unlike NU Pastime, I actually fully understand the rule, but it still needs to be fixed. It's going to cost us (or another ECAC-E member) very soon, come NCAA time - perhaps even this year. It's a total disaster.
                            The bigger sham is on the women's side where Holy Cross is completely Division I across the board yet their women's ice hockey team plays in the ECAC East. How they get around that blows my mind.
                            The Poster Formerly Known as Purple_and_Gold10©
                            "The Prezidential Three - Elmira, Oswego, Norwich" © Joecct
                            GO EAGLES!!! R.I.P. L.H. #4 In our hearts forever
                            GO LAKERS!!!
                            GO CADETS!!! R.I.P. Charlie Crosby '63
                            "Reisweber trying to circle in front of the net, he does, HE SCORES! that's it! Oswego State has done it!! The Lakers take home the first NCAA title of any kind in school history. It's celebration time in Upstate New York!"
                            Oswego State '09

                            Comment


                            • Re: Norwich 14-15

                              Originally posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post
                              The bigger sham is on the women's side where Holy Cross is completely Division I across the board yet their women's ice hockey team plays in the ECAC East. How they get around that blows my mind.
                              Doesn't the ECAC East require that they comply with DIII financial aid rules as a requirement of membership? Isn't that why Sacred Heart isn't in the ECAC East despite playing a DIII schedule - they won't play by DIII rules? Of course the only thing they are eligible for is the "treasured" ECAC Cup.

                              Looking at the seeding for that tournament, I don't understand how Holy Cross (the third place non DIII team in the ECAC East appears to be the fourth seed and relegated to a play-in game, while St. Mike's (the fourth place non DIII team in ECAC East) gets to host and appears to be the number 2 seed. That makes no sense.
                              2007-2008 ECAC East/NESCAC Interlock Pick 'em winner
                              2007-2008 Last Person Standing Winner,
                              2013-2014 Last Person Standing Winner (tie)
                              2016-2017 Last Person Standing Winner

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                              • Re: Norwich 14-15

                                Originally posted by NUProf View Post
                                Doesn't the ECAC East require that they comply with DIII financial aid rules as a requirement of membership? Isn't that why Sacred Heart isn't in the ECAC East despite playing a DIII schedule - they won't play by DIII rules? Of course the only thing they are eligible for is the "treasured" ECAC Cup.
                                I would assume yes but it still blows my mind that Holy Cross can have a completely Division I funded athletic dept. yet for all intent and purposes have a D-III women's hockey program while the rest of the teams are D-I.

                                Usually its the other way around with one or two sports "playing up" rather than a sport "playing down"

                                Just makes absolutely no sense to me.
                                The Poster Formerly Known as Purple_and_Gold10©
                                "The Prezidential Three - Elmira, Oswego, Norwich" © Joecct
                                GO EAGLES!!! R.I.P. L.H. #4 In our hearts forever
                                GO LAKERS!!!
                                GO CADETS!!! R.I.P. Charlie Crosby '63
                                "Reisweber trying to circle in front of the net, he does, HE SCORES! that's it! Oswego State has done it!! The Lakers take home the first NCAA title of any kind in school history. It's celebration time in Upstate New York!"
                                Oswego State '09

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