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  • #31
    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    Ah, much better.
    You don't need math if you want to live in a 3rd world USA. I just got done taking a NABCEP class on PV installations. Solar is still way off for most locations. The technology is getting better but 1000 watts per square meter isn't much when your collectors are 18% efficient and in Maine you have an average of 4.2 peak sun hours.
    I swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.

    Maine Hockey Love it or Leave it

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    • #32
      Re: climate change times are a changin'

      My take is to trust the scientists. Evidence of climate change seems beyond reproach. What we want to do about it however is up in the air. Of the many, many, many complaints I have about modern day conservatism is its objection to basic facts. Don't have a solution? Then just deny there's an actual problem.

      Where lefties are right on the facts but too strident on the solutions is on issues such as NIMBYism (no windmills disrupting my million dollar view on Martha's Vineyard) and imposing a poorly understood carbon tax mechanism.

      The solutions are fairly simple but not as **** as some of the wilder proposals. First and foremost switch to natural gas for energy in the US, which is 1) cheaper than oil/coal/nuclear, and 2) harms the environment less. It would be nice if everything ran on water or gravity but it doesn't. In the meantime embrace the best alternative.

      Next, and again this might not be a huge scientific breakthrough, but the US needs to speed up several programs already underway to cut emissions. Keep raising fuel standards for starters. Next, exploit more alternate energy sources that don't release carbons. Outside of Vegas, is there any reason to go to Nevada? No, so solar panel the entire freakin' state! Same with most of Arizona. Bingo - free energy (once you pay for putting the panels in). Hydro is about the cheapest energy source out there. Is there any way to get more power out of existing facilities with newer technology? Finally, conservation programs such as home insulation or smart thermostats for example cut huge amounts of demand for energy. The gubmint needs to work with utilities particularly in cold weather states to improve this.

      One point about China and India. Nothing screams "lets sit around with our thumbs up our @zzes and do nothing" like the statement that nothing we do will affect the power plant construction in 3rd world countries. Wrong and wrong again. If we exploit cheaper and cleaner energy, these places are going to want to get a piece of the action less they be at a competitive disadvantage. If the US becomes energy independent watch how fast the rest of the world scrambles to catch up.
      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

      Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

      "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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      • #33
        Re: climate change times are a changin'

        All of your solutions have other environmental impacts, Rover, most often to the animal kingdom. Windmills --in the aggregate-- are killing birds by the thousands, including many protected species. Environmentalists are now saying that natural gas is no cleaner for the environment than other options, though it has the opposite opinion by many because it's just not discussed as often. Solar panels on such a broad scale will impact the natural environment and cause some special mouse to up and disappear. Add to that, if we put so many reflective survaces over the desert, will the reflective nature of the panel collectors cause an excess cooling of that environment? That's one of the reasons things get so cold around here in the winter - the white snow reflects the Sun's energy back out of the atmosphere, causing us to get even colder. Hydro can impact aquatic life, diverting rivers from their natural paths to suit our needs. How do all of these power solutions change the evolution of life on this planet?

        Nothing anyone can propose is without other environmental costs. To say otherwise is to osterich as much as those you're railing against in the first place.
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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        • #34
          Re: climate change times are a changin'

          Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
          All of your solutions have other environmental impacts, Rover, most often to the animal kingdom. Windmills --in the aggregate-- are killing birds by the thousands, including many protected species. Environmentalists are now saying that natural gas is no cleaner for the environment than other options, though it has the opposite opinion by many because it's just not discussed as often. Solar panels on such a broad scale will impact the natural environment and cause some special mouse to up and disappear. Add to that, if we put so many reflective survaces over the desert, will the reflective nature of the panel collectors cause an excess cooling of that environment? That's one of the reasons things get so cold around here in the winter - the white snow reflects the Sun's energy back out of the atmosphere, causing us to get even colder. Hydro can impact aquatic life, diverting rivers from their natural paths to suit our needs. How do all of these power solutions change the evolution of life on this planet?

          Nothing anyone can propose is without other environmental costs. To say otherwise is to osterich as much as those you're railing against in the first place.
          In Mass, NIMBY's tried to appeal to the Audobon society to come out against windmills in Nantucket Sound. Society took a look and came up in support, saying that while there may be some bird deaths, it paled in comparison to the environmental benefits. I'll take them at their word on this.

          Kindly post the environmental studies showing natural gas emits as much carbon as coal plants. I'm extremely curious who's saying that....

          Special mice need to move to where solar panels aren't. While I'm exaggerating about paneling the entire state, those two things (solar, mice) can easily co-exist.

          Hydro proposal is built on existing facilities (Hoover Dam, TVA, Niagara Falls, etc) not building new ones, so no new impact from my proposal.

          Anything else?
          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: climate change times are a changin'

            Originally posted by Rover View Post
            In Mass, NIMBY's tried to appeal to the Audobon society to come out against windmills in Nantucket Sound. Society took a look and came up in support, saying that while there may be some bird deaths, it paled in comparison to the environmental benefits. I'll take them at their word on this.

            Kindly post the environmental studies showing natural gas emits as much carbon as coal plants. I'm extremely curious who's saying that....

            Special mice need to move to where solar panels aren't. While I'm exaggerating about paneling the entire state, those two things (solar, mice) can easily co-exist.

            Hydro proposal is built on existing facilities (Hoover Dam, TVA, Niagara Falls, etc) not building new ones, so no new impact from my proposal.

            Anything else?
            While I agree with you on this, I also know that there are some people that will raise holy hell about it. People with opinions set in stone that won't budge no matter what you tell them.
            Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

            RIP - Kirby

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            • #36
              Re: climate change times are a changin'

              windmills are useless. they do indeed kill lots of birds. walk around under them sometime. and look at the size of the power lines leading out from them. spaghetti noodles.

              solar shows much more promise. the military is solarizing bases in the southwest. not sure how that would work at McChord or Minot!

              can anyone answer this question for me? over the history of the earth we have had periods of warming, periods of having no ice what so ever, periods of glaciers and heavy winters, tropical times, cold times. what caused this? sun variations? heat from the earths core? Milanovitch cycles? and if carbon dioxide makes plants grow and pump out more oxygen won't that equal out?

              thinking about the ozone hole from 20-30 years ago. scientists discovered the problem, governments looked at it and everyone agreed freon had to go. it went and the ozone hole has been shrinking every since. scientists do not yet have 100% agreement on global warming.

              the simplest solutions are not environmentally acceptable - hydroelectric, drilling for more natural gas, use less electricity.

              BTW I have been a believer then non-believer and now I'm just curious. I still need to know what caused warming and chilling cycles with no man around or when man had no carbon emissions.
              Originally posted by mtu_huskies
              "We are not too far away from a national championship," said (John) Scott.
              Boosh Factor 4

              Originally posted by Brent Hoven
              Yeah, but you're my favorite hag.

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              • #37
                Re: climate change times are a changin'

                Any theory which includes people exhaling as pollution should likely be dismissed fairly quickly. Why it hasn't is puzzling to me.

                How long will it take "man made" CO2 to equal the output of a single volcanic eruption?

                The Earth is a pretty mighty place. Humans are puny respectively. For us to think that we can control/destroy/impact the Earth's climate by burning oil is incredibly arrogant. True, we do need to be good stewards of our home, but to think we exert control on it is crazy. If the Earth decides it has had enough of humanity, we are gone. Plain and simple. Nothing we can do will change that.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: climate change times are a changin'

                  It never quite got to the Fx stage, but impressive supercell development in Wyoming..

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoO89cqDgJU
                  CCT '77 & '78
                  4 kids
                  5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                  1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                  ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                  I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by huskyfan View Post

                    thinking about the ozone hole from 20-30 years ago. scientists discovered the problem, governments looked at it and everyone agreed freon had to go. it went and the ozone hole has been shrinking every since. scientists do not yet have 100% agreement on global warming.
                    Google "ozone hoax" and you'll see there are STILL people who don't think it was real. Climate change has 97% agreement among scientists.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: climate change times are a changin'

                      Originally posted by board View Post
                      Google "ozone hoax" and you'll see there are STILL people who don't think it was real. Climate change has 97% agreement among scientists.
                      Yes, priceless, there is a 97% agreement that the event is occurring. Once you get into the details behind the cause of it, you'll find disagreement as to whether or not man has contributed to it significantly.
                      "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                      "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                      "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: climate change times are a changin'

                        Originally posted by board View Post
                        Google "ozone hoax" and you'll see there are STILL people who don't think it was real. Climate change has 97% agreement among scientists.
                        Probably not good to argue with board, but I agree with St. Clown. If this was such a slam dunk, there would not be a debate. Plus there would be actual physical proof that is not based on computer models. You can't really do that projecting so far into the future. Also the effects are also in question. How many times have we heard the oceans will wash away New York and California, and the polar ice caps would be gone. Last time I checked, neither of those had happened. You can't make disastrous claims over and over, being wrong each time, and still have much credibility.

                        EDIT: I'm sure someone will cite some temperature study done as proof, but obviously that is not good enough. Climate is very dynamic so you can't predict trends so easily.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: climate change times are a changin'

                          You know, I don't give a hoot who was farming 1200 years ago in Greenland or anything else. What I can tell is there's less ice at the North Pole and it sure seems warmer around here than when I was a kid. One can also assess rising sea levels fairly easily. So, call me self-centered, but its the here and now I'm concerned with. No, I'm not one of those people who think climate change causes tornados. However, we need to cut emissions and carbon where we can, and let nature recover/take care of the rest so that over the rest of most of our lifetimes the air continually gets cleaner and there's less stress on the planet.

                          While not being alive in the 1700's unlike some conservative posters out here it seems logical to me that from the industrial revolution on to present day has to have had a hugely negative impact on what we call climate change. That was rightly or wrongly caused by humans, hence we should also strive to put it right. That doesn't mean moving into huts and living off the land, but it means being more and more responsible than not only our 19th century ancestors, but even more than our parents (in most cases).
                          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: climate change times are a changin'

                            Originally posted by Rover View Post
                            You know, I don't give a hoot who was farming 1200 years ago in Greenland or anything else. What I can tell is there's less ice at the North Pole and it sure seems warmer around here than when I was a kid. One can also assess rising sea levels fairly easily.
                            Really? If that's the case maybe it's a seasonal thing. How's the ice at the South Pole?

                            So, call me self-centered, but its the here and now I'm concerned with. No, I'm not one of those people who think climate change causes tornados. However, we need to cut emissions and carbon where we can, and let nature recover/take care of the rest so that over the rest of most of our lifetimes the air continually gets cleaner and there's less stress on the planet.

                            While not being alive in the 1700's unlike some conservative posters out here it seems logical to me that from the industrial revolution on to present day has to have had a hugely negative impact on what we call climate change. That was rightly or wrongly caused by humans, hence we should also strive to put it right. That doesn't mean moving into huts and living off the land, but it means being more and more responsible than not only our 19th century ancestors, but even more than our parents (in most cases).
                            How do you know the impact is negative? A little bit warmer weather seems like it might be okay. Still say that it is incredibly arrogant to say humans can have a significant impact on the planet. Again, if the Earth wants us gone... we are toast. So I don't think the Earth is too upset because we burn coal... something produced by the Earth.

                            So if it doesn't mean living in huts, what does it mean? You think us all driving electric cars will be enough to save the world? Or do we need to stop exhaling too?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tiggsy View Post
                              Probably not good to argue with board, but I agree with St. Clown. If this was such a slam dunk, there would not be a debate. Plus there would be actual physical proof that is not based on computer models. You can't really do that projecting so far into the future. Also the effects are also in question. How many times have we heard the oceans will wash away New York and California, and the polar ice caps would be gone. Last time I checked, neither of those had happened. You can't make disastrous claims over and over, being wrong each time, and still have much credibility.

                              EDIT: I'm sure someone will cite some temperature study done as proof, but obviously that is not good enough. Climate is very dynamic so you can't predict trends so easily.
                              25% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth. You will never achieve 100% agreement on anything, even proverbial "slam dunks."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: climate change times are a changin'

                                Originally posted by unofan View Post
                                25% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth. You will never achieve 100% agreement on anything, even proverbial "slam dunks."
                                Some things should require agreement because there is proof. Scientific law. Climate change is not scientific law so obviously it can and should be legitimately questioned like any scientific hypothesis to be proven/disproven.

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