climate change times are a changin'

[Bob Gray]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

The military has been involved with green/alternate energy for a whole lot longer than Obama has been around. I was tangentially involve in a biofuel for military aviation project that was going on under Bush I. They generally come at it more from a Peak Oil/denied supplies perspective, though. The military is incredibly energy hungry - for them, efficiency and ability to generate electricity in remote locations is about mission capability, not saving the planet.

Of course the military has looked at green/alternative energy prior to Obama. But Obama has seriously ramped it up from what was going on before.

[LynahFan]

You totally misread what I wrote. That is not at all what I thought I said.

I said that the fact that there was natural climate change in the past proves that human activity cannot be the single, sole, and exclusive driver of climate change today. That is very, very different entirely.

No, it's not different, and you're just digging deeper. In addition to periods of dramatic climate change, the historical record also shows periods of remarkable climate stability. How have you come to the conclusion that we are 100% definitely not in what would be a period of stability if not for human activity? I think it is very possible that all other effects could well be neutral, leaving human activity as the *sole* driver of the changes that we are seeing today. You seem to think you have enough understanding of the problem to rule that out as a possibility - where did that "understanding" come from? A lifetime of study of clmatology, or a lifetime of ideology? I have my guess...

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

Can't somebody just invent CO2 to O2 air scrubbers already?

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

Can't somebody just invent CO2 to O2 air scrubbers already?

http://www.realclearsports.com/blog/stanford-tree.jpg

We'll need a lot of 'em.

[FreshFish]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

Can't somebody just invent CO2 to O2 air scrubbers already?

Yes. They are called "plants." In particular, the variety of plant called "trees" remove CO₂ from the air and store it in the form of "wood."

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

Yes. They are called "plants." In particular, the variety of plant called "trees" remove CO₂ from the air and store it in the form of "wood."

obviously there aren't enough of them anymore so we need to create machines to do it so we can stop worrying about co2 emissions

[FreshFish]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

I am saying that human activity is only one possible driver of climate change and we need to tease out the incremental effects to understand how to make effective policy ....
It is an open question: if a change in human activity has very strong incremental effects, then we choose one course; if a change in human activity has minimal incremental effects, we choose a different course. Right now, the state of the "conversation" is that either you are 100% in one camp or 100% in the other camp, while it seems to me that we just don't know enough yet because we are not even examining the right questions.

In addition to periods of dramatic climate change, the historical record also shows periods of remarkable climate stability. How have you come to the conclusion that we are 100% definitely not in what would be a period of stability if not for human activity? I think it is very possible that all other effects could well be neutral, leaving human activity as the *sole* driver of the changes that we are seeing today.

It seems to me that we are pretty much in agreement here (~85% to ~90%) and merely have a few semantic quibbles around the edges so to speak.


It seems to me that, on the one had, it would strain credulity to claim that human activity has no effect whatsoever. We already learned that about the ozone hole.

On the other hand, the anthropogenic global warming zealots sound a lot like Thomas Malthus did back in his day, and those kinds of scare tactics have been discredited more than once (see also Paul Ehrlich).

[FreshFish]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

obviously there aren't enough [plants] anymore so we need to create machines to do it so we can stop worrying about co2 emissions

yes. I think that the Arbor Day Foundation has a link to some other organization that issued a press release several years ago that claimed that if each of us planted ten trees we would totally offset our CO₂ emissions deficit (though I don't remember if it was ten trees total or ten trees each year....)

The latter organization has a link that lets you calculate your carbon footprint.

While AGW might be controversial, I am pretty sure that we all can agree that planting more trees is a good thing overall.

[joecct]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

Yes. They are called "plants." In particular, the variety of plant called "trees" remove CO₂ from the air and store it in the form of "wood."

A well known theory of Al J. Moss.

[Craig P.]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

obviously there aren't enough of them anymore so we need to create machines to do it so we can stop worrying about co2 emissions

There aren't. And there won't be. There's too much CO2 to remove, and not enough vegetation.

[FreshFish]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

A survey of various publications, articles, research findings, professional opinions by various experts, etc. can be found at this link.

Based on that survey, there is no widespread consensus about anything: while human activity has "some" influence on climate change, only a minority believe it is a "dangerous" influence.

[FreshFish]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

To me, this different issue is far more pressing and far more serious than the debate about how much of climate change is caused by human activity:

WASHINGTON (AP) — Species of plants and animals are becoming extinct at least 1,000 times faster than they did before humans arrived on the scene, and the world is on the brink of a sixth great extinction, a new study says.

The study looks at past and present rates of extinction and finds a lower rate in the past than scientists had thought. Species are now disappearing from Earth about 10 times faster than biologists had believed, said study lead author noted biologist Stuart Pimm of Duke University.

"We are on the verge of the sixth extinction," Pimm said from research at the Dry Tortugas. "Whether we avoid it or not will depend on our actions."

The work, published Thursday by the journal Science, was hailed as a landmark study by outside experts.

Numerous factors are combining to make species disappear much faster than before, said Pimm and co-author Clinton Jenkins of the Institute of Ecological Research in Brazil. But the No. 1 issue is habitat loss. Species are finding no place to live as more places are built up and altered by humans.

Add to that invasive species crowding out native species, climate change affecting where species can survive, and overfishing, Pimm said.

Species diversity gives life more flexibility to adapt to changing conditions, and we are clearly going in the wrong direction here.

[Bob Gray]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

This came up a bit ago. Scooby and I discussed whether extinction or economic collapse would get us first. He leaned toward the former, I the latter.

[joecct]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

This came up a bit ago. Scooby and I discussed whether extinction or economic collapse would get us first. He leaned toward the former, I the latter.

Economic collapse will not kill off entire populations - it will reduce the #, but it will not be an extinction level event.

Neither, IMO, will an ice age "get us". Humans adapt. We overcome the obstacles that nature sets before us. An dinosaur killer will, most probably, wipe us all out, unless we're no longer tied to this planet.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: climate change times are a changin'

More fun in the government screwing up the conversation...

http://io9.com/the-house-science-com...-is-1583909402