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  • Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    Wouldn't fox news avoiding it give it credence since anything we see on fox news isn't legit anyway? or did I miss something about what lefties think of fox news?
    As with all things, there is a spectrum. Fox News may be biased and may have gone to court to preserve its right to lie, but it still has some minimum standards. It, along with other Murdoch media properties, can still provide some information as long as you recognize what you're getting is heavily slanted to the right. It's still several orders of magnitude of legitimacy above Joe's political blog and Jane's science hour newsletter.

    If nothing else, it can't go too far or it'd lose all sponsorship. And Murdoch is nothing if not a business man first and foremost.
    Last edited by unofan; 05-21-2014, 11:44 AM.

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    • Re: climate change times are a changin'

      Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
      That is completely your OPINION which is the whole point of why we on the other side get so annoyed when you just want to ignore us. Saying we have our heads buried in the sand isn't debate, it is simply attempting to shutdown debate by discrediting opposition. This whole "we don't have any time, we need to change everything now or we're doomed" crap is just as ridiculous as claiming that burning all these fossil fuels has no effect of things what so ever.
      The thing is though, I didn't say anyone who disagrees has their head buried in the sand. What I suggested was that is the case for people who put out the straw man that global warming had been discredited because the term wasn't literally true for all points over all time intervals.

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      • Re: climate change times are a changin'

        Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
        The thing is though, I didn't say anyone who disagrees has their head buried in the sand. What I suggested was that is the case for people who put out the straw man that global warming had been discredited because the term wasn't literally true for all points over all time intervals.
        I see you ignored the more important point of my post...
        Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

        Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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        • Re: climate change times are a changin'

          Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
          I see you ignored the more important point of my post...
          And that would be...

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          • Re: climate change times are a changin'

            Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
            And that would be...
            The part of my previous post that you didn't quote.
            Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

            Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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            • Re: climate change times are a changin'

              Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
              It's not a "surprise"--I never said that. The point is that the unforeseen changes in solar output are not a good reason for the models to be discredited--they were never intended to handle short term chaos in outside forcings.
              Really? So how long before we get back on track with the model and the sun comes back in line? 100 years? 1000 years? How much time do you need to even out?



              Sorry, no. My opinion is based on actual information and reasoning--and that's not to say that that information and reasoning might not be flawed--that's certainly a possibility. Arguing something like "The models should not be dismissed because of the short term divergence because it coincides with an unforeseen drop in solar output" is not fundamentally the same as saying "We can't cause the earth to warm because it's just so big and powerful." They're not the same thing--the latter is 100% gut feeling--it's useless. It would be like me thinking I should be taken seriously with fluff like "I just feel like it's been warmer the last few years."


              I didn't claim I'm superior to you (nice try martyr). It's just that in this case, posting a link to a website with actual information and rational arguments is not the same thing as arguing feelings. Ah yes, the "lefty" fall back--I've got a really strange voting record for a lefty.
              Semantics. Being condescending regarding my opinion was enough for me to make that connection. You're putting of faith in some website. How do you know it is all true and based on proper science? Is there actual data or is it just a big long essay based on this guy's work or thoughts? Because the data seems to be a big part about this in your eyes. At some point you have to start taking the author's word so where is the line drawn? If I publish a website with my views and have a phd backing me up, that wouldn't be enough.

              Blah blah voting record. Elections are obviously about much more than part affiliation so don't point to that as a defense mechanism. Look at how Obama got elected for a prime example. Plus why even bring that up? Are you ashamed or offended being classified as a liberal?



              Originally posted by unofan View Post
              Doesn't it say something that you have to resort to attacking the ACA rather than refuting the simple point that the posted graph is skewed?
              My point was to illustrate the double standard, not the skewed data. I have no knowledge of the data or its source beyond what was posted. Pointing out that similar tactics have been done to greater extent is a pretty decent example of that.

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              • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
                The part of my previous post that you didn't quote.
                I respect your opinion on the matter, but I largely disagree. The longer the delay in finding a solution, the longer and bigger the effects could be--I think it's the conservative approach to act aggressively now to avoid what could be a pretty ugly situation for future generations.

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                • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                  Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
                  I respect your opinion on the matter, but I largely disagree. The longer the delay in finding a solution, the longer and bigger the effects could be--I think it's the conservative approach to act aggressively now to avoid what could be a pretty ugly situation for future generations.
                  So find a solution that can stand on it's own without government intervention. If it really is that great and that important, you shouldn't need the enforcement arm or financial support of the government. If an electric car was as safe, as cheap, and easier to use and maintain I certainly would buy one next time I'm shopping for a car. I guarantee you 95% of the world would do the same. Until then, we wait.

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                  • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                    Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
                    I respect your opinion on the matter, but I largely disagree. The longer the delay in finding a solution, the longer and bigger the effects could be--I think it's the conservative approach to act aggressively now to avoid what could be a pretty ugly situation for future generations.
                    What difference does what 300 million people in america do if China, India and the southeast asia isn't there with us? We've all seen the picture where more people live between pakistan and malaysia than the rest of the world.


                    Here is a pretty good read that falls somewhere in between what you think and I think:
                    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...climate-change

                    (hows that for a source? nbc news good enough?)
                    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                    Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                    • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                      Originally posted by Tiggsy View Post
                      Really? So how long before we get back on track with the model and the sun comes back in line? 100 years? 1000 years? How much time do you need to even out?
                      That's obviously up to the sun. What's telling is that even during this period of lower solar output, the models still track up and down with observations pretty reliably. That should tell you that they are continuing to model the effects of the internal forcings quite well--they're just off by a correction factor.

                      Originally posted by Tiggsy View Post
                      Semantics. Being condescending regarding my opinion was enough for me to make that connection. You're putting of faith in some website. How do you know it is all true and based on proper science? Is there actual data or is it just a big long essay based on this guy's work or thoughts? Because the data seems to be a big part about this in your eyes. At some point you have to start taking the author's word so where is the line drawn? If I publish a website with my views and have a phd backing me up, that wouldn't be enough.
                      I'm putting my faith in my ability to follow a rational argument. Regarding the questions you're posing about the web page I linked to earlier--I suggest you simply read some of it and make your own judgments.

                      Originally posted by Tiggsy View Post
                      Blah blah voting record. Elections are obviously about much more than part affiliation so don't point to that as a defense mechanism. Look at how Obama got elected for a prime example. Plus why even bring that up? Are you ashamed or offended being classified as a liberal?
                      Not ashamed--amused that that is your fall back retort to suggest that I'm a lefty, because you simply don't know what you're talking about in that regard.

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                      • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                        Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
                        What difference does what 300 million people in america do if China, India and the southeast asia isn't there with us? We've all seen the picture where more people live between pakistan and malaysia than the rest of the world.


                        Here is a pretty good read that falls somewhere in between what you think and I think:
                        http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...climate-change

                        (hows that for a source? nbc news good enough?)
                        Originally posted by James Lovelock
                        before this century is over billions of us will die and the few breeding pairs of people that survive will be in the Arctic where the climate remains tolerable.
                        I read up to this quote before deciding that I probably shouldn't put much stock in what this guy is saying now.

                        I understand that the solution has to involve more than just us. China is showing signs that they are interested in dealing with this. They are undertaking the largest carbon sequestration project in the world near Mongolia. I'm not sure if that technology is going to be a viable part of the solution or not, but it least it shows they recognize a problem exists.
                        Last edited by GrinCDXX; 05-21-2014, 01:36 PM.

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                        • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                          Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
                          Not ashamed--amused that that is your fall back retort to suggest that I'm a lefty, because you simply don't know what you're talking about in that regard.
                          Well now I'm curious. What point are you trying to make here? That you're not a lefty? Obviously on this issue that simply isn't true. Of course I don't know you and you don't know me but if you're hardcore liberal on an issue like this, it is usually a safe assumption. If on other issues you have more moderate or conservative tendencies, congratulations and I'm proud of you for that. But that has zero to do with issue being discussed in this thread.

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                          • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                            Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
                            What difference does what 300 million people in america do if China, India and the southeast asia isn't there with us? We've all seen the picture where more people live between pakistan and malaysia than the rest of the world.


                            Here is a pretty good read that falls somewhere in between what you think and I think:
                            http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...climate-change

                            (hows that for a source? nbc news good enough?)


                            Oddly enough, the USA's population is expected to increase, while the population of China is projected to decrease. In fact, some think China is heading for the same demographic doom that's staring Japan in the face - even if the one child policy was lifted, the wealthier populace no longer wants to have more than one which will lead to more elderly than everybody else. Will have to find the study in an old Economist I might still have, but IIRC the US was going to hit 500M by the end of the century, while China would drop to maybe the 800-900 range?
                            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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                            "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                            • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                              Alright, try this one then:
                              http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-906721.html
                              Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                              Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                              • Re: climate change times are a changin'

                                Originally posted by Rover View Post
                                Oddly enough, the USA's population is expected to increase, while the population of China is projected to decrease. In fact, some think China is heading for the same demographic doom that's staring Japan in the face - even if the one child policy was lifted, the wealthier populace no longer wants to have more than one which will lead to more elderly than everybody else. Will have to find the study in an old Economist I might still have, but IIRC the US was going to hit 500M by the end of the century, while China would drop to maybe the 800-900 range?
                                Interesting, I had not heard that...would like to see the link if you find it.
                                Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                                Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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