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Thread: climate change times are a changin'

  1. #181
    unofan's Avatar
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggsy View Post
    So it's government's job to push markets in a direction that they wouldn't normally go?
    In certain circumstances, yes. That's a no-brainer. The free market is a means to an end, not the end itself. An unregulated market is as much of a disaster as a completely government-run marketplace (aka, communism).

    There are things the market doesn't price in, either because it can't or is unwilling to. These things are called externalities, which are themselves a subset of things known as market failures. This is basic economics 101 stuff; hell, this is high school economics stuff.

    Pollution is literally the textbook example of a negative externality. If company X is spewing sulfur dioxide which is causing acid rain 3 states away on homeowner Y's property, that's a negative cost that will not be reflected in the price of company X's goods. Guess how we correct for that market failure?
    Last edited by unofan; 05-22-2014 at 08:32 AM.

  2. #182
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    In certain circumstances, yes. That's a no-brainer. The free market is a means to an end, not the end itself. An unregulated market is as much of a disaster as a completely government-run marketplace (aka, communism).

    There are things the market doesn't price in, either because it can't or is unwilling to. These things are called externalities, which are themselves a subset of things known as market failures. This is basic economics 101 stuff; hell, this is high school economics stuff.

    Pollution is literally the textbook example of a negative externality. If company X is spewing sulfur dioxide which is causing acid rain 3 states away on homeowner Y's property, that's a negative cost that will not be reflected in the price of company X's goods. Guess how we correct for that market failure?
    Market purists tend to have one thing in common--very little understanding of markets.

  3. #183
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxton View Post
    Wrong and you have been corrected about this before.
    Climategate Scientists cleared of wrong doing AGAIN


    "look at the periodic table. that's been settled tens of times."

    What?!

    Posts like this are why climate truthers are looked at like ignorant children.
    is name calling the best you've got? not a very scientific argument. and, yes, the periodic table has changed numerous times as new elements are found.

    of course the climate is changing, always has, always will. I think everyone agrees with this. the cause is the issue.
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  4. #184
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggsy View Post
    As opposed to your tactic of name calling someone who disagrees with you and pouting? Yeah, that's not childish at all.
    That's why the Ignore fuction is your friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

  5. #185
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    That's why the Ignore fuction is your friend.
    Yeah, this was fun in the beginning. It's not as much fun anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrinCDXX View Post
    Market purists tend to have one thing in common--very little understanding of markets.
    Another subtle shot at me that you will claim wasn't a shot at all? Or are you just going to play dumb again and pretend like you don't understand what I'm saying?

  6. #186
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Foxton ignoring evidence in favor of a stacked self-interested panel... Nah, couldn't happen.

  7. #187
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggsy View Post
    Yeah, this was fun in the beginning. It's not as much fun anymore.
    Yup. Some people can be fun to discuss with and debate with. Some not so much. The longer I'm around here, I quicker I am to cut out folks that don't add to the discussion and troll/bait.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

  8. #188
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    If our pollution and depletion of natural resources isn't causing temperatures to rise, seas to raise, and crazy weather phenomenon and we still curb pollution and slow down the depletion of natural resources/look for alternative energies, what's the worst that will happen? We have a better looking planet to pass on to future generations? Oh no, the horror!

  9. #189
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Yup. Some people can be fun to discuss with and debate with. Some not so much. The longer I'm around here, I quicker I am to cut out folks that don't add to the discussion and troll/bait.
    Yeah, not much point in responding to some if their immediate response is to troll/bait. I don't know how anyone can discount that interview with Von Storch. The one article trying to explain the pause lists more than one potential reason but I'm suppose to accept that one reason as gospel I guess...even though I've now seen at least a half dozen explanations...so there is obviously no consensus on why the pause is happening.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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  10. #190
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbaud View Post
    If our pollution and depletion of natural resources isn't causing temperatures to rise, seas to raise, and crazy weather phenomenon and we still curb pollution and slow down the depletion of natural resources/look for alternative energies, what's the worst that will happen? We have a better looking planet to pass on to future generations? Oh no, the horror!
    Who here is defending pollution? How is the world we live in today not much much cleaner than 50 years ago? The removal of lead as an additive in fuels was wonderful. The regulation of point source pollution is terrific. We're doing a great job as is, but people keep trying to move the bar instead of realizing that things are great from a pollution stand point. We do need to be vigilant when new research says we were wrong some chemical causes problems at lower levels than we thought, etc but that is no reason to regulate CO2...
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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  11. #191
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggsy View Post
    Another subtle shot at me that you will claim wasn't a shot at all? Or are you just going to play dumb again and pretend like you don't understand what I'm saying?
    Take it how you want. I don't much care.

  12. #192
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    Who here is defending pollution? How is the world we live in today not much much cleaner than 50 years ago? The removal of lead as an additive in fuels was wonderful. The regulation of point source pollution is terrific. We're doing a great job as is, but people keep trying to move the bar instead of realizing that things are great from a pollution stand point. We do need to be vigilant when new research says we were wrong some chemical causes problems at lower levels than we thought, etc but that is no reason to regulate CO2...
    How is continuing to raise the bar a bad thing? In nearly everything in life most people would advocate continuing to improve, why does this not apply to pollution? Cancer treatment is better than it used to be, should we call it quits on research? Once your children reach a certain level of competence in math, reading, science etc. should they stop learning because what they have is good enough? The military technology we have is kick ***, should we stop funding anything new?

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrinCDXX View Post
    Take it how you want. I don't much care.
    Sounds like a "take your ball and go home" tactic.

  14. #194
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    How is continuing to raise the bar a bad thing? In nearly everything in life most people would advocate continuing to improve, why does this not apply to pollution? Cancer treatment is better than it used to be, should we call it quits on research? Once your children reach a certain level of competence in math, reading, science etc. should they stop learning because what they have is good enough? The military technology we have is kick ***, should we stop funding anything new?
    Exactly. I'm not in the "World is Doomed" camp, but I fail to see what the problem is if mankind continues to try to improve on what it can control (pollutants, carbon emissions, etc). A good friend of mine traveled to China recently and he said you can hardly breathe the air in the city he was staying in. I'd rather not go back to dealing with that and I suspect eventually the citizens of China are going to tire of it as well.
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  15. #195
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Exactly. I'm not in the "World is Doomed" camp, but I fail to see what the problem is if mankind continues to try to improve on what it can control (pollutants, carbon emissions, etc). A good friend of mine traveled to China recently and he said you can hardly breathe the air in the city he was staying in. I'd rather not go back to dealing with that and I suspect eventually the citizens of China are going to tire of it as well.
    And who says we're heading back to that if we keep pollution criteria where they are today?
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggsy View Post
    Sounds like a "take your ball and go home" tactic.
    Sure, why not?

  17. #197
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    And who says we're heading back to that if we keep pollution criteria where they are today?

    Republicans! At least they'd like us to go back in time.
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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggsy View Post
    Sounds like a "take your ball and go home" tactic.
    Funny how you respond to his comment but again ignore the substance of my comment that prompted his comment.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    And who says we're heading back to that if we keep pollution criteria where they are today?
    In this thread alone, tiggsy has all but called for the repeal of the EPA and every other federal agency besides the military, the fbi, and the dept of transportation (security and infrastructure).

    There is certainly a segment out there that would be fine going back to the days where rivers were on fire in the name of the free market.

  20. #200
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    In this thread alone, tiggsy has all but called for the repeal of the EPA and every other federal agency besides the military, the fbi, and the dept of transportation (security and infrastructure).

    There is certainly a segment out there that would be fine going back to the days where rivers were on fire in the name of the free market.
    I don't want a repeal of the EPA but I certainly think they have overstepped their bounds on many things. As far as pollution control goes, I think they're ok. Controlling ponding water in a person's yard is a bit crazy. I will say this, my experiences with regulations pretty much show that that federal EPA really isn't that necessary beyond guidance anymore because each state I've encountered has its own rules and in many cases they are more stringent than the feds.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

    Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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