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Thread: climate change times are a changin'

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    climate change times are a changin'

    there used to be a thread on climate change. couldn't find it.

    what are your thoughts on it? any believers now non believers? any non believers now believers?

    saw a headline yesterday that France said we have 500 days to save the planet.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Do you believe in owls?

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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by huskyfan View Post
    there used to be a thread on climate change. couldn't find it.

    what are your thoughts on it?
    "climate change" has been occurring for millions of years. Changes in sunspot activity, a giant asteroid hitting the earth 63 million years ago and spreading a cloud of dust across the sky for years, there are clearly cycles of warming and cooling throughout prehistory. There was an ice age tens of thousands of years ago, which suggests that we've had a warming cycle since then (for a really long time before humans were burning any fossil fuels at all!)

    Now, whether human activity is affecting these natural cycles in any observable way is another matter entirely. It is interesting to note that plants evolved during a time in which atmospheric CO2 was significantly higher than it is today. So much so that people who operate greenhouses will pump extra CO2 into the air to promote better plant growth. and plants then take in CO2 and release oxygen. So it might well be the case that we have a natural regulator available.

    suppose there is "global warming" and also suppose it is occuring due to natural cycles that have nothing whatsoever to do with human behavior. Then it seems to me that we should really concentrate our intelligence, energy, capital, and research on economic growth and technological innovation so that we'll have the resources available to adjust.

    I definitely would not trust computer models or computer simulations. Too sensitive to very minor changes in inputs (anyone familiar with fractals will know exactly what I mean, a very minor change in an input can create a huge change in the output), way too difficult to test empirically.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 05-15-2014 at 02:01 PM.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Well there's certainly a lot of hyperbole in the way the media is reacting to it (which is, in turn, leading to people having moronic opinions on the subject).

    It's real, it's happening now, it's well beyond the "natural cycle" that FF was referring to, and there's no credible science to indicate that this isn't a big deal or that the cause and solution are outside the scope of what mankind has done/can do.

    Unfortunately, all of the solutions we can do to enact a measurable change (basically: everything we do that burns fossil fuels and removes vegetation that can help mitigate our CO2 output) are "bad for business" and therefore the politics of actually doing something will forever be like playing tennis against a brick wall. As long as people on this planet are in love with the idea of putting business interests first and everything else last (and last I checked, that's basically a curse of the human condition), the discourse will lead to no action, and nothing will change.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    From what I've read and heard, the single most effective thing any of us can do in a concrete, effective way is to plant trees. The CO2 is removed from the air and stored in the wood.

    From the data I've seen, deforestation is a far bigger contributor to increases in atmospheric CO2 than burning fossil fuels.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by huskyfan View Post
    saw a headline yesterday that France said we have 500 days to save the planet.
    Uh huh.

    In 2008, Al Gore boldly declared to a German audience that “the entire North ‘polarized’ cap will disappear in 5 years.” (Needless to say, that did not happen. In fact, the ice cap in the Arctic actually got larger this year.)
    I agree with Charles Krauthammer -- the US and Canada can do whatever they want to reduce emissions, but it won't mean diddly.

    I have said this again and again. We have reduced our carbon dioxide emission since 1996, more than any other country in the world, and, yet, world emissions have risen. Why? We don't control the other 96% of humanity. We can pass all the laws we want. We can stop all economic activity and take cold showers for the next 100 years it will not change anything if India and China are opening a new coal plant every week.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
    I agree with Charles Krauthammer -- the US and Canada can do whatever they want to reduce emissions, but it won't mean diddly.
    Now there's an inconvenient truth.
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    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    There is no climate change.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Now there's an inconvenient truth.
    Yeah, no arguing with that one. ****ing India and China, ruining it for the rest of us.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Subscribed because I'm a convert.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    http://www.latimes.com/science/envir...513-story.html

    2 to 10 centuries before it falls. Hold on to your butts.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    From what I've read and heard, the single most effective thing any of us can do in a concrete, effective way is to plant trees. The CO2 is removed from the air and stored in the wood.

    From the data I've seen, deforestation is a far bigger contributor to increases in atmospheric CO2 than burning fossil fuels.
    Harvested wood is one of the most effective ways to "permanently" sequester CO2. So constantly replenishing the trees is critical, but then again, harvested forests mean nothing compared to the oceans and even the Taiga forest.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    From what I've read and heard, the single most effective thing any of us can do in a concrete, effective way is to plant trees. The CO2 is removed from the air and stored in the wood.

    From the data I've seen, deforestation is a far bigger contributor to increases in atmospheric CO2 than burning fossil fuels.
    well as a forestry major, trees do a lot to absorb carbon for sure, but to say that they are the major reason that there is an acceleration in global climate change strikes me as incorrect and a gross exaggeration.

    is it true, ...of course it is, will changing our actions make much difference,... only if the Chinese do so also, which I doubt they will. Whatever the consequence, this is going to be so politicized that the facts will be obscured by the noise. To paraphrase Nate Silver's book.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Whatever we do, we shouldn't try to mitigate whatever changes are already occurring. Instead we should try to make the situation as bad as possible as quickly as possible. That way our scientists will be prodded into creating the technology required to get human beings off this planet so we can colonize (and eventually destroy) some other planet(s).

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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Also, here's my take on global warming:

    For the longest time I dismissed it as liberal bulls*t and chalked it up to alarmism. The solutions were just as bad as the predicted consequences, or so I thought. Then it occurred to me, "What if I'm wrong? What are the real consequences?" So for a couple years I was on the fence. It still wasn't worth destroying our energy supply for something that I wasn't convinced we could do anything about and I wasn't convinced we were even causing.

    The other major problem I had was the approach the other side of the table had, Hey, shut down all coal plants. Put a carbon tax on everything. Make us all bike to work." No feasible solutions had been proposed. They were all non-starters. You can't simply put a carbon tax on industry without fostering growth elsewhere. In other words, too much switch, not enough carrot.

    Then as time went on and the movement switched to a technology- and growth-based response. I'm not entirely sure when the switch started but it was fairly recently. The push towards a feasible solar supplement. More efficient and cheaper wind power equipment. Research into fusion. Things that would advance technology, science, produce jobs. Things that would help produce jobs instead of only maintaining the existing jobs in the current industries.

    I still have MAJOR issues with the "believers" movement. The term "windmilling" is one that was applied to them by a local radio show host in the Cities. This idea that the liberals pushing this don't want windmills in their backyard is a big issue. It puts a black eye on the entire movement and really tells us how much they believe it and how much is just them spewing political bulls*t. If you want change, buy into it completely.

    Either way, I'm convinced, but if we want this to work, we need to take an approach that makes sense economically and fixes the problem. They aren't mutually exclusive. Besides, once we hit peak oil or start to run low on coal (even if this is a century away), it's going to take decades to catch up with the science and technology to produce the energy en masse.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    The green movement and its Lysenko bandwagon will not gain any credence with me until they adopt modern nuclear power as a solution and the primary solution.

    Why wait for the miracle tomorrow when you have the reality of today?

    The reason, it's not really about the climate.

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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Patman View Post
    The green movement and its Lysenko bandwagon will not gain any credence with me until they adopt modern nuclear power as a solution and the primary solution.

    Why wait for the miracle tomorrow when you have the reality of today?

    The reason, it's not really about the climate.
    Kind of the cart before the horse don't you think. We can't even agree there is a problem, let alone what to do about it.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
    I agree with Charles Krauthammer -- the US and Canada can do whatever they want to reduce emissions, but it won't mean diddly.
    "Just because we invent and use a superior technology doesn't mean the rest of the world will...except they frankly almost always do." Krauthammer is typically wrong...and is again so.

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Then as time went on and the movement switched to a technology- and growth-based response. I'm not entirely sure when the switch started but it was fairly recently. The push towards a feasible solar supplement. More efficient and cheaper wind power equipment. Research into fusion. Things that would advance technology, science, produce jobs. Things that would help produce jobs instead of only maintaining the existing jobs in the current industries.
    ...and the US could outright own that technology. But alas, we are handicapped by our conservatives who believe alternative sources can't work...so I guess we'll just end up buying Chinese in ten years.
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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    From what I've read and heard, the single most effective thing any of us can do in a concrete, effective way is to plant trees. The CO2 is removed from the air and stored in the wood.

    From the data I've seen, deforestation is a far bigger contributor to increases in atmospheric CO2 than burning fossil fuels.
    Source? Michelle Bachmann?

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    Re: climate change times are a changin'

    Quote Originally Posted by manurespreader View Post
    Kind of the cart before the horse don't you think. We can't even agree there is a problem, let alone what to do about it.
    Well, the people who don't see the problem don't need to be anyone's concern. They're just getting in the way.
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    Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

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