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  • Re: Headline News Thread

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    That's not what the research indicates. It appears that smoking marijuana in teen years can have long-term negative effects because the teenage brain is still developing. Chronic marijuana use for 14- and 15-year olds is vastly different than chronic marijuana use by 22-year olds (who hadn't started sooner). I don't have a link handy but I think it was the American Academy of Pediatrics or some such organization that sponsored the research.
    Unless they account for variables such as parenting (lack thereof) and engagement in after school activities etc. it's probably not going to tell us anything we don't already know ie lazy people are gonna be lazy etc.

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    • Re: Headline News Thread

      Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
      No doubt smoking pot tends to make people mellow. Which certainly is better than really mean. But there are certainly circumstances when attentiveness, drive, etc. are needed, like in an educational (or many work) setting, and being real mellow (not to mention the developmental issues FF mentions below) would be a hindrance.
      So then it's on the consumer to use the drug responsibly, like we require of alcoholic beverage consumers today. Kids show up to school drunk and they're punished. If kids show up high, they can and should be punished.

      I'm not advocating its use by any means. During my time in high school, I witnessed a friend who was to get a position on the varsity basketball team. Given how small those teams are, that's quite a thing. Instead, at the end of his junior year he started smoking pot and his motivation for all things basketball were gone. At the same time, I knew people who were on the football team that got high after every game as a way to mellow out after being wound up from playing. In fact, I used to play hockey with a guy who played DIII out east, and he "couldn't play" unless he was high.

      Like all other things, its usage is going to run the gambit. People need to be given the facts and then they'll weed themselves out in that full array. (Sorry for the pun.)
      "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

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      • Re: Headline News Thread

        Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
        Homeschooling done right is a far superior option to sending your kids off to someone else to educate. Of course not everyone does homeschooling well, just to head that one off at the pass.
        I actually think the ideal form of schooling was the Renaissance model of having a private tutor in the home, both teaching from a set (in that case, classical) curriculum and also taking a Montessori-like approach of learning by doing, cultivating the child's natural talents and interests. But not everybody can afford to be Federico, Duke of Urbino.

        The German factory model of education that we adopted in the early 20th century works great if you're trying to produce an army of interchangeable workers or soldiers. So far we haven't come up with anything better to educate huge masses of children, but maybe information technology will help when combined with intelligent and forward-thinking educational expertise. Still, public education is invaluable in being the one place where kids from different backgrounds meet and form their own attachments and opinions. For most people it will be the only thing approaching a "cosmopolitan" experience in their lives. It's not exactly ennobling or pleasant to meet a true cross-section of your fellow beings, but it is highly educational.
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        • Re: Headline News Thread

          Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
          Yes, we have vastly different perspectives and understanding on pot. I just don't get folks who won't admit there are problems or potential problems with pot. When people trot out the discussions about how it's not as bad in certain ways as alcohol or other drugs, that's very telling. I guess the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is out of fashion also.
          I have no idea what you mean by "very telling," aside from this again seems to be a place where you take your assumptions and run with them.

          The simple fact is that alcohol is far more dangerous and destructive than pot. I say that as a person who consumes the former and not the latter, though that shouldn't matter. It's obvious to me from both anecdotal observation of people over the years and the pure statistical data on the carnage caused by alcohol.

          The statement of fact X has nothing to do with "not admitting" fact Y -- it's just discussing something different, and just because you are centered on fact Y doesn't oblige everyone around you to restrict themselves solely to a discussion of it. In this case I agree with you to some extent on fact Y -- I agree that there are potential problems with pot. However, I'm focusing on what for me is the real issue: if we were serious about utilitarian effects of substances our laws would be different; in this instance, they would be reversed. The substances we control say at least as much about political posturing and fanning cultural fears (not to mention commercial lobbying) as they do about substantive issues.
          Last edited by Kepler; 09-23-2015, 12:06 PM.
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          • Re: Headline News Thread

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            Still, public education is invaluable in being the one place where kids from different backgrounds meet and form their own attachments and opinions. For most people it will be the only thing approaching a "cosmopolitan" experience in their lives. It's not exactly ennobling or pleasant to meet a true cross-section of your fellow beings, but it is highly educational.
            This is the #1 reason I want my kids in public school: the social experience. The learning is obviously toned down to the lowest common denominator in the early grades, for which reason a friend of mine has homeschooled his kid to age 17. She's way ahead of the game academically, but has never had a single friend her own age. A disturbingly sheltered life (for example, she's never tasted meat or milk, and never slept outside her home) which at some point is going to violently eject itself from the nest.
            At home, we do boost the public curriculum by doing and supervising a lot of reading, especially during the summer.
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            • Re: Headline News Thread

              Originally posted by geezer View Post
              This is the #1 reason I want my kids in public school: the social experience. The learning is obviously toned down to the lowest common denominator in the early grades, for which reason a friend of mine has homeschooled his kid to age 17. She's way ahead of the game academically, but has never had a single friend her own age. A disturbingly sheltered life (for example, she's never tasted meat or milk, and never slept outside her home) which at some point is going to violently eject itself from the nest.
              At home, we do boost the public curriculum by doing and supervising a lot of reading, especially during the summer.
              Boy, that's the choice of the parents to isolate that kid. We have friends who home schooled all 5 of their kids to some point or another (one boy got put in a school to provide more discipline - but a private school). All of them have had a rich social life through sports, church activities, musical activities, jobs, etc. They have been top performers academically (at least the oldest three who have graduated college or are in college) and all are well rounded and well adjusted socially. We met them when our son played hockey with #4 and we've become friends with them all. When #3 "graduated" last spring we went to the party and there was no lack of friends there to enjoy the day.

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              • Re: Headline News Thread

                I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths (evolution, sex ed, cosmology), and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against (blacks, browns, liberals). The people who homeschool have all the best intentions, but I think it's wrong to limit your children's exposure to what are, after all, mainstream scientific ideas. If your faith is really all that it ought to be able to sit in the same room with science.

                What homeschooling is doing is turning back the clock to a time when many places were isolated and not exposed to any outside influences that contradicted parental teaching. That's the "Real America" that these people pine for. They are creating a parallel fantasy world.
                Last edited by Kepler; 09-23-2015, 02:01 PM.
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                • Re: Headline News Thread

                  Originally posted by goldy_331 View Post
                  Boy, that's the choice of the parents to isolate that kid. We have friends who home schooled all 5 of their kids to some point or another (one boy got put in a school to provide more discipline - but a private school). All of them have had a rich social life through sports, church activities, musical activities, jobs, etc. They have been top performers academically (at least the oldest three who have graduated college or are in college) and all are well rounded and well adjusted socially. We met them when our son played hockey with #4 and we've become friends with them all. When #3 "graduated" last spring we went to the party and there was no lack of friends there to enjoy the day.
                  This is the best case, IMO, when the parents are talented enough to teach all subjects. There are those cases where the aim is to replace the whole curriculum with Mt. Ararat archaeological studies. It takes very dedicated parents to do it well, but I can see doing it as an improvement/expansion over the public curriculum.
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                  • Re: Headline News Thread

                    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                    I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths, and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against.
                    Just as you caution to the people you are talking about, you need to separate what you think from what actually is.

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                    • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths, and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against.
                      What about basic fears? Sex, drugs, violence, bad influences leading to other issues like crime.
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                      • Re: Headline News Thread

                        Originally posted by geezer View Post
                        This is the best case, IMO, when the parents are talented enough to teach all subjects. There are those cases where the aim is to replace the whole curriculum with Mt. Ararat archaeological studies. It takes very dedicated parents to do it well, but I can see doing it as an improvement/expansion over the public curriculum.
                        This family depended on the mom to do the lion's share of the education and she readily admits she's no professional educator. Thirty years ago I'm sure it would not have worked nearly as well for most families, but there are enormous resources available to parents now.

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                        • Re: Headline News Thread

                          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                          I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths (evolution, sex ed, cosmology), and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against (blacks, browns, liberals). The people who homeschool have all the best intentions, but I think it's wrong to limit your children's exposure to what are, after all, mainstream scientific ideas. If your faith is really all that it ought to be able to sit in the same room with science.

                          What homeschooling is doing is turning back the clock to a time when many places were isolated and not exposed to any outside influences that contradicted parental teaching. That's the "Real America" that these people pine for. They are creating a parallel fantasy world.
                          The family I mentioned have not even pretended to be religious for about 6 or 8 years. Their motivation was simply to accelerate academics (mistrust of the value of factory education). But IMO the social and developmental cost was huge to that child. But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that more than half the home-schoolers are religious.
                          In fact, the reason they quit association with the home-schooling group they belonged to is because of the religiosity of the other members.
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                          • Re: Headline News Thread

                            Originally posted by JF_Gophers View Post
                            What about basic fears? Sex, drugs, violence, bad influences leading to other issues like crime.
                            This isn't going to be nice, but the people I mostly see homeschooling (rural and suburban whites) have little or no substantive reason to fear. Not to put too fine a point on it, it's mostly racist. A school with non-whites must by definition be a school with {fill in parade of horribles}. They're only partially to blame, though, since their worldview has been created by the GOP strategy of the last 40 years of promoting racial fears in order to exploit white voters.
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                            • Re: Headline News Thread

                              Originally posted by geezer View Post
                              The family I mentioned have not even pretended to be religious for about 6 or 8 years. Their motivation was simply to accelerate academics (mistrust of the value of factory education). But IMO the social and developmental cost was huge to that child. But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that more than half the home-schoolers are religious.
                              In fact, the reason they quit association with the home-schooling group they belonged to is because of the religiosity of the other members.
                              Sure, it may be true that this family is doing some sort of J. S. Mill experiment. I'm arguing that my many anecdotes trump your one anecdote. I'm not aware of any real homeschool data, but the companies that provide the materials seem to overwhelmingly push a religious agenda. I think the latter portion of your anecdote actually supports my point.

                              Homeschoolers (as well as the TX and KS schoolboards) are literally rewriting history and science because reality conflicts with their myths and prejudices. That is not healthy.
                              Last edited by Kepler; 09-23-2015, 02:14 PM.
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                              • Re: Headline News Thread

                                Originally posted by goldy_331 View Post
                                This family depended on the mom to do the lion's share of the education and she readily admits she's no professional educator. Thirty years ago I'm sure it would not have worked nearly as well for most families, but there are enormous resources available to parents now.
                                Those resources are part of the problem. They're written to appeal to the political and social beliefs of their customers. That's not education, it's companies cynically profiting from indoctrination.

                                I had a discussion with a co-worker who both was homeschooled and who now has homeschooled his kids. He literally was not aware that Creationism is a fringe belief -- he thought scientists broke down "about 50/50" and that schools shut out the scientifically equally respected religious theory because they are pushing atheism. He also thought that "the majority of scientific advances of the last century support Biblical sources, and it was only the 19th century Communist-controlled schools who made mistakes that gave the temporary appearance that science conflicts with the Bible." This is a really smart guy with a lot of common sense, but he just doesn't know. If you take a great brain and poor crap into it, you get crap back out.
                                Last edited by Kepler; 09-23-2015, 02:21 PM.
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