Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

[SteveP]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Yep. My uncle and great grandpa had 78 years combined on the force. Never fired a weapon. Not even close, actually. I am so thankful for that.

Me, my brother and father - 81 years combined, no shots fired. I came closest with a guy that wanted suicide by cop, but we were able to subdue him.

On the other hand, an ex-relative shot and killed two men in seperate incidents. Just a roll of the dice.

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

I'm sure you're right, but what you're saying risks that fallacy. It's a sort of false equivalency: "well, on the one hand the citizen says he was doing nothing but on the other hand so does every criminal, so it's a wash." I don't think it's a wash -- I think the odds, in any sample with < 50% criminals, favor the citizen.

Somehow you jumped from someone who says they didn't do anything (when they did) to everyone that says they didn't do anything must be guilty of what they said they didn't do if you're going to believe the first part about anyone.

Awfully big leap there.

[trixR4kids]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Somehow you jumped from someone who says they didn't do anything (when they did) to everyone that says they didn't do anything must be guilty of what they said they didn't do if you're going to believe the first part about anyone.

Awfully big leap there.

Well part of the problem is

And of course no one at Shawshank is guilty.

Which makes it seem like that's what he was arguing. Obviously given the plight of the central character I doubt that's what he's arguing but there are a lot of people out there who do think along the lines of the just world assumption.

[Kepler]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Somehow you jumped from someone who says they didn't do anything (when they did) to everyone that says they didn't do anything must be guilty of what they said they didn't do if you're going to believe the first part about anyone.

Awfully big leap there.

Yes, that was my point. It's a formal fallacy, although I think it's actually a different fallacy: "All bears are mammals, therefore all mammals are bears." Dangit, I have completely forgotten which syllogistic rule that violates. It's here, somewhere.

[SteveP]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

From what I've heard from the cops that I know of (not exactly a hotbed of racism, mind you, although it was a top spot for Hispanics and Hmong)...these cops spoke firmly, no Hollywood talk (gonna count to 5), but not exactly polite, either. Direct, succinct commands. There was no clarification questions to be had.

You've hit the nail on the head. We always made sure people knew we meant business. Did we sometimes verbally take it to his level? Hell yeah if the situation demanded it. The difference was that I/we had a PR24 defender nightstick in our hands, not an MP4 or similar firearm.

[SteveP]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

I'll just put this here...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11...ession-charges


"Ross Township detective Brian Kohlhepp said traffic officer Sean Stafiej pulled over a Camaro operated by Bell around 1:30 p.m. after Stafiej, who was on a motorcycle, noticed a strong odor of marijuana coming from the vehicle. Stafiej found a 20 gram bag of marijuana inside the car."


I mean, dude's on a motorcycle and can smell it... lol.

We motorcycle cops are not to be messed with!

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Yes, that was my point. It's a formal fallacy, although I think it's actually a different fallacy: "All bears are mammals, therefore all mammals are bears." Dangit, I have completely forgotten which syllogistic rule that violates. It's here, somewhere.

No, it's not. It's reality. It's human nature to deny wrong-doing or minimize what he/she may have done to contribute to a situation.

Just because a guilty person will reflexively profess innocence doesn't mean that everyone professing innocence is guilty.

Who would make that logical leap?

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

We motorcycle cops are not to be messed with!

Yeah, but you guys shouldn't be taking jobs from those drug-sniffing dogs.

[unofan]

No, it's not. It's reality. It's human nature to deny wrong-doing or minimize what he/she may have done to contribute to a situation.

Just because a guilty person will reflexively profess innocence doesn't mean that everyone professing innocence is guilty.

Who would make that logical leap?

Seriously? You've never heard people say things along the lines of "why'd he (lawyer up, protest so much, etc.) if he's innocent?"

[St. Clown]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Given what the eyewitnesses saw, the autopsy, the location of the body etc., I think the cop may have been negligent in his handling of this. That's the only non-biased info we have (Dorian Johnson is biased but the other two not so much). Admittedly it's not much but it's not like one can't possibly form an opinion based on that info.

A little more fuel for the fire: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08...source-sa.html

FERGUSON, Mo. (ABC News) - The Ferguson police officer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager suffered “a serious facial injury” in the altercation before firing the fatal shots, according to a source close to the officer who spoke to ABC News today.

The characterization about Officer Darren Wilson being injured in his confrontation with Michael Brown emerged on the day that a grand jury was expected to begin hearing evidence in the shooting.

Brown, 18, was shot and killed by Wilson on Aug.9, and protesters have been angrily calling for Wilson's arrest and indictment since that day.

St. Louis County Prosecutor David McCullough cautioned Wednesday that a decision on whether or not the officer would be indicted will not come quickly. He told ABC News "our target date is the middle of October" for wrapping up the evidence and asking the jury to decide whether to charge Wilson. Grand juries typically meet one day a week.

Unless we or, more importantly, the courts can see pictorial evidence of these facial wounds, it's all rumor and hear-say, and given how information has come from the PD on this, I'm not completely sold until there is irrefutable evidence. If Wilson had been struck like that, the outcome for Michael Brown shouldn't surprise anyone and will cast great amounts of doubt and suspision onto Brown's friend who's been telling avery different story.

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

I'm sure you're right, but what you're saying risks that fallacy.

Then you've misinterpreted what I said. I did chime in on another comment about the fact it's not uncommon for guilty parties to plead innocent, whether it be on the street or from jail. That's not only not inaccurate, but in an of itself not remotely an indictment of everyone that finds themselves on the wrong side of a cop's judgement. Of course there is racism among cops and I don't doubt for a second they've been guilty of malfeasance. That shouldn't lead you to ascribe a belief system of, "you were accused therefore you must be guilty" because of one innocous comment.

When the story first broke I’ll admit that I figured something went terribly wrong on the cop’s side or people wouldn’t be freaking out. However, a good amount of information that’s come to light since the initial hysteria broke indicates the cop was guilty of doing nothing but defending himself. Does it really require bias to think at this point the answer is up to interpretation and requires further exploration? Accoring to trix the answer is yes.

[trixR4kids]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

A little more fuel for the fire: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08...source-sa.html

Unless we or, more importantly, the courts can see pictorial evidence of these facial wounds, it's all rumor and hear-say, and given how information has come from the PD on this, I'm not completely sold until there is irrefutable evidence. If Wilson had been struck like that, the outcome for Michael Brown shouldn't surprise anyone and will cast great amounts of doubt and suspision onto Brown's friend who's been telling avery different story.

I highly doubt they wouldn't have shown that during their little smear campaign if it was true. Not to mention I believe that video showed Wilson after the shooting and he didn't appear to be hurt. That said it's not impossible obviously.

However, a good amount of information that’s come to light since the initial hysteria broke indicates the cop was guilty of doing nothing but defending himself. Does it really require bias to think at this point the answer is up to interpretation and requires further exploration? Accoring to trix the answer is yes.

It's all from the cop himself or a friend/family member though (or the smear campaign by the PD). Or an "unnamed source" ie the worst kind of source. There's plenty of reason to be skeptical about it to say the least.

Obviously there should be further exploration, that's what the DOJ is doing.

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Seriously? You've never heard people say things along the lines of "why'd he (lawyer up, protest so much, etc.) if he's innocent?"

Are you claiming that's the equivalent to the dude on Cops who's saying he didn't do nothin' when they have him on video doing somethin'.

Everybody would tell you that you should get a lawyer if you could be accused of something.


And when I said, "Who would make that leap?", I was referring to Kepler saying what he said - not people lawyering up or reflexively professing false innocence.

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

There's at least one named source trix and one unnamed, neither of which are the cop's friend. Harris was most likely shot from the front. You're clinging to one eyewitness who's testimony is bunk if the autopsy is correct but you're sure you know what happened. The only bias here appears to be yours.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

There's at least one named source trix and one unnamed, neither of which are the cop's friend. Harris was most likely shot from the front. You're clinging to one eyewitness who's testimony is bunk if the autopsy is correct but you're sure you know what happened. The only bias here appears to be yours.

I've changed my mind and have learned a valuable lesson. Don't believe anything about any of these stories until the story is so old no one cares anymore. Then, maybe, you can read about what happened.