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  • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    How is it racist to point out that blacks kill each other far more often than whites do?
    That's not the meme.
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    • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

      Then I must have missed the point.
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      • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

        Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
        They could be. We have like 3 or 4 saying more or less he same thing though. And possibly even law enforcement if the nytimes article is to be believed.
        You ARE the same trisR4kids as on GPL, right? In which case I now understand much more.

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        • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

          Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
          Then I must have missed the point.
          The meme is the armchair sociology from wingnuts who wring their hands and rend their garments before regretfully concluding that black people are culturally prone to violence, which is simply the au current way to say inherently prone to violence. National Review and Redstate are using the same narrative as those comments on the Wilson contribution site, just cleaned up for Sunday Talk Show consumption. It taps the same root.

          Crime is about economic opportunity. When legal means of opportunity are denied, people are forced to other means. That's Peter Blau / Howard Becker 101. Every underclass in US history has had a quote culture of violence unquote, because it isn't the culture, it's the opportunity. Among the people who have been previously branded as being in some way exceptional in their cultural resistance to responsibility and self-harming in the pursuit of the American dream: the Irish ("drunken"), Italians ("unrestrained Latin blood"), Mexicans ("shiftless"), and Chinese (um... "inscrutable"?). The Echo Chamber couldn't get away with peddling any of those characterizations anymore (well, maybe the Mexicans... but apparently these days they prefer "diseased"), but we still get "black mob culture," "absence of black fathers," "black de-emphasis of education," etc. That's the meme.

          If you reversed the history of racism and the present state of economic opportunity of whites and blacks in the US, the results would be exactly the same with the races reversed. Race means something here only in the sense that it's a marker used by both sides to self-identify, but the actual content of race -- who's black and who's white -- is utterly arbitrary.

          And that's why a Modest Proposal like send-up of the language being used is appropriate and highly effective.
          Last edited by Kepler; 08-22-2014, 06:57 AM.
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          • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

            Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
            How are you pretty sure he wasn't fleeing when multiple accounts state that he was?
            Even in the stories that exonerate Wilson, Brown started off by leaving (after he punched Wilson), then he stopped and turned around.

            This discussion reminds me of Kurosawa's movie Rashomon in which 4 different eyewitnesses relate the same series of event, but tell four very different stories. The main actions are the same but take on a very different context in each version of it.




            One story says Wilson tries to drag Brown into the car. Another story says Brown reached into the car to punch Wilson. From a distance, either version would look pretty much the same.


            One version says Brown walked away and was shot. Another version says Brown walked away, turned around, charged, and was shot. If someone's view was partially obstructed, either version would look pretty much the same.


            So both versions could quite easily fit the same set of actions. There's no "either / or" here yet as far as I can tell.

            People could truthfully be relating what they "saw" because they are not only relating what registered on their retinas, they also are relating how their brains interpreted those visual images. We all know that two different people can look at the same thing and "see" very different things and both be truthful about what they saw, because perception is limited and we all unconsciously interpret things to fit patterns with which we are familiar. That's just how our minds work, and there is plenty of empirical research to back it up. An engineer and a hair stylist will not see the same thing even when they are looking at the same thing.
            Last edited by FreshFish; 08-22-2014, 07:24 AM.
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            • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
              The meme is the armchair sociology from wingnuts who wring their hands and rend their garments before regretfully concluding that black people are culturally prone to violence, which is simply the au current way to say inherently prone to violence. National Review and Redstate are using the same narrative as those comments on the Wilson contribution site, just cleaned up for Sunday Talk Show consumption. It taps the same root.

              Crime is about economic opportunity. When legal means of opportunity are denied, people are forced to other means. That's Peter Blau / Howard Becker 101. Every underclass in US history has had a quote culture of violence unquote, because it isn't the culture, it's the opportunity. Among the people who have been previously branded as being in some way exceptional in their cultural resistance to responsibility and self-harming in the pursuit of the American dream: the Irish ("drunken"), Italians ("unrestrained Latin blood"), Mexicans ("shiftless"), and Chinese (um... "inscrutable"?). The Echo Chamber couldn't get away with peddling any of those characterizations anymore (well, maybe the Mexicans... but apparently these days they prefer "diseased"), but we still get "black mob culture," "absence of black fathers," "black de-emphasis of education," etc. That's the meme.

              If you reversed the history of racism and the present state of economic opportunity of whites and blacks in the US, the results would be exactly the same with the races reversed. Race means something here only in the sense that it's a marker used by both sides to self-identify, but the actual content of race -- who's black and who's white -- is utterly arbitrary.

              And that's why a Modest Proposal like send-up of the language being used is appropriate and highly effective.

              Do poor whites and poor hispanics have the same murder rate as poor blacks?

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              • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

                Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                How is it racist to point out that blacks kill each other far more often than whites do? The reason it's pointed out is because when something like ferguson happens, people act like the white cops are out there killing hundreds of black kids every day.

                Yet when Old Pio rightly points out that there ARE hundreds of blacks who are being killed every day and it's by the gang bangers taking shots at each other and hitting innocent bystanders, we are called racist for pointing this out?
                The only time that it's racist(ish) is when it's a knee-jerk reaction that someone tries to shoehorn into the discussion of any crime involving a black person. Like when someone thinks that it's somehow relevant to Officer Wilson shooting Michael Brown.

                It's sort of a counterpart to the reflexive use of the word "thug" (but only when talking about black people).
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                • Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                  He might have missed a shot genius. How difficult is that to comprehend?
                  Say he did. What does that have to do with the shots which hit him from the front? Are you saying they ricocheted and hit Brown on the rebound or something?

                  We know he wasn't fleeing when he was hit.

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                  • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

                    Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                    The only time that it's racist(ish) is when it's a knee-jerk reaction that someone tries to shoehorn into the discussion of any crime involving a black person. Like when someone thinks that it's somehow relevant to Officer Wilson shooting Michael Brown.

                    It's sort of a counterpart to the reflexive use of the word "thug" (but only when talking about black people).

                    It's not racist.

                    When used to excuse a cop, it's a deflection.


                    Reality or pointing out facts is not racism.

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                    • Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                      It's not racist.

                      When used to excuse a cop, it's a deflection.


                      Reality or pointing out facts is not racism.
                      It can be if the fact is a complete non sequitur used solely to make that race seem inferior. Context matters.

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                      • Originally posted by unofan View Post
                        It can be if the fact is a complete non sequitur used solely to make that race seem inferior. Context matters.
                        Racist though? Or just disingenuous?

                        I don't see it as making them seem inferior. I see it as changing the subject to excuse one's own behavior or the behavior of someone you are trying to defend.

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                        • Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                          Racist though? Or just disingenuous?

                          I don't see it as making them seem inferior. I see it as changing the subject to excuse one's own behavior or the behavior of someone you are trying to defend.
                          It depends on the context. The fact itself is not racist. The usage of said fact certainly could be.

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                          • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

                            Originally posted by unofan View Post
                            It depends on the context. The fact itself is not racist. The usage of said fact certainly could be.

                            It could be in some instances and when used by some individuals, but it gets a little tiring where every factual observation that is pointed out becomes racist.

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                            • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

                              Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                              It could be in some instances and when used by some individuals, but it gets a little tiring where every factual observation that is pointed out becomes racist.
                              Now you're just being racist.
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                              • Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

                                Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                                Do poor whites and poor hispanics have the same murder rate as poor blacks?
                                Poor whites from multi-generational poor communities are actually worse than poor blacks overall (the worst of all are poor Pacific Islanders -- go figure), but that's apples and oranges -- you'd need multi-generation poor whites vs multi-generation poor blacks and I've never seen that data. Poor whites overall are the best, which could reinforce my thesis: the "transitional" poor (people who hit the skids for a decade because of some traumatic event) will still tend to have opportunities because, for one thing, they don't face institutional racism -- though that gets dicey because you're talking about correlatives and there's no way to know which way the arrows go. I haven't seen any data comparing Hispanics -- it's gotta be out there, it just wasn't the spotlight issue when I was doing this stuff in grad school.

                                What we knew from studies circa '89 when I left the game:

                                1. Class matters a lot...
                                2. ... but mobility matters more.
                                3. Family formation doesn't matter at all (which is very counter-intuitive, but that's how the numbers are. As of the 80's, anyway, when you controlled for the other factors single parent / divorced / long-term married had no significant differences)
                                4. When you control for mobility, race doesn't matter, but population density matters a lot, with middle density being much better than either rural or urban.
                                5. Gender matters most of all. There is no constellation of controlled conditions you can put together where the gender difference in murder rates disappears excerpt for violent criminal history, which for obvious reasons is a methodological no-no.
                                Last edited by Kepler; 08-22-2014, 09:47 AM.
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