2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

[OneTimer]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Do you think coaching was a big advantage here? Now if there was discrepancy in in-game adjustments, it would've been Canada making better 2nd intermission adjustments rather than the U.S. failing to react to earlier adjustments. Clearly Canada had an edge in the first period despite being outshot, and the U.S. was much better in the second period.

As far as advantages in coaching knowledge go, I would also hope that Katey has some advantage in knowledge specific to women's hockey and knowledge of her personnel. Overall though, I don't expect coaching to be a huge advantage for either side.

I hate to focus too much on two players, but I'd say the biggest difference is just that Agosta & Wickenheiser are better and more comfortable at this level than anyone the U.S. has.

Canada has a huge and decisive advantage is coaching. It is not even close.

[OneTimer]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Is Haley Irwin suiting up for team Canada? Injured? Haven't been following too closely . . . but, haven't heard her name yet during the Olympics?

And not a whole of ice time for Chu either in the 3rd period.

[hockey13]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Canada has a huge and decisive advantage is coaching. It is not even close.

On what basis? Stone has been coaching, successfully, for...maybe 20 years at the highest level of women's ice hockey (unless someone wants to argue that the coaching is better at the few "pro" teams that exists). She knows the women's game better, and she knows here players better. Is your rationale just that Dineen coached in the NHL and the NHL is just better, even though women can't play or coach there? That's a genuine question. If it were, say, Ben Smith versus Dineen, would you say the same thing?

[OneTimer]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

On what basis? Stone has been coaching, successfully, for...maybe 20 years at the highest level of women's ice hockey (unless someone wants to argue that the coaching is better at the few "pro" teams that exists). She knows the women's game better, and she knows here players better. Is your rationale just that Dineen coached in the NHL and the NHL is just better, even though women can't play or coach there? That's a genuine question. If it were, say, Ben Smith versus Dineen, would you say the same thing?

It is not even close.

[ARM]

In terms of projecting Kessel as the dominant player, I do think, we tend to overweight the performance in the prior World Championship. College players, current or recent (within a year), are simply much better prepared for the Worlds than veterans when there's no centralization. But then centralization levels the playing field.

You're overlooking the impact of injuries. Poulin, is coming off an ankle injury, and doesn't look 100 percent to me. Kessel is coming off another surgery and was playing her first game against Canada since Worlds. Sure centralization helps, and these players haven't gotten to reap the full benefit of centralization due to games missed. Kessel hasn't been healthy often over the past four years, but when she is, she dominates the game as well as any of the great players of the NCAA era.

As for Wickenheiser, I do think she has declined a bit. Her stats look good, but her goals came off a gift-wrapped, unforced turnover that led to a breakaway and an own goal. Not quite as pure as Poulin's goals of four years ago.

I think Agosta has been the most successful 4-year U.S. college player in the Olympics by far.

You mean offensively, correct? She gives more effort defensively these days, but IMO, she is still a defensive liability.

[Goon]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I sat down with Coach Idalski yesterday and this is what he had to say.

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

You're overlooking the impact of injuries. Poulin, is coming off an ankle injury, and doesn't look 100 percent to me. Kessel is coming off another surgery and was playing her first game against Canada since Worlds. Sure centralization helps, and these players haven't gotten to reap the full benefit of centralization due to games missed. Kessel hasn't been healthy often over the past four years, but when she is, she dominates the game as well as any of the great players of the NCAA era.

Right, I didn't mean to imply that great college players can't be great Olympic players. I do think it's true that it's very common that a very top college player dominates the World Championship in the same year -- usually that implies something about the player being healthy in the college year and continuing to be healthy for the World Championship. And then it's much harder for that same college player to dominate the following Olympics, simply because the competition is tougher, there's centralization, more veteran players aim to peak for the Olympics than the Worlds, and also there's some regression to the mean.

All I'm saying on Kessel is that it's unreasonable to infer that because she was so far above everyone else in 2013, that she would certainly be the clear superstar in this Olympics, given her injury and the general patterns I've mentioned above. But I think there's some chance she'll still end up being the first star in the gold medal game, it's just that she probably has as good of a chance as a handful of other players. I don't think we're in disagreement on any of this.

As for Wickenheiser, I do think she has declined a bit. Her stats look good, but her goals came off a gift-wrapped, unforced turnover that led to a breakaway and an own goal. Not quite as pure as Poulin's goals of four years ago.

Agreed, but these last two U.S.-Canada games in 2010 & 2014 it just seems Canada's veteran stars have risen to the occasion. In 2010, Botterill made the great pass to set up Poulin's first goal, and that was her only point of the tournament -- nothing against all the also-rans of the world! It was probably the most important point of her Olympic career. Botterill and Wickenheiser were both probably 6 or more years past their peak when they made these key plays against the U.S. I may be reading too much into a small sample, but Canada seems to simply have the players that get it done when it counts most and the U.S. does not.

You mean offensively, correct?

Yes.

She gives more effort defensively these days, but IMO, she is still a defensive liability.

I'll defer to you on that point. I can't say I've paid close attention to her defensive performance in her two Olympic Games against the U.S or more generally lately.

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

On what basis? Stone has been coaching, successfully, for...maybe 20 years at the highest level of women's ice hockey (unless someone wants to argue that the coaching is better at the few "pro" teams that exists). She knows the women's game better, and she knows here players better. Is your rationale just that Dineen coached in the NHL and the NHL is just better, even though women can't play or coach there? That's a genuine question. If it were, say, Ben Smith versus Dineen, would you say the same thing?

Onetimer has been posting for a while that Dineen is a great hire, Stone is no good, and the U.S. would be better off with Kevin Houle or anyone as its head coach. You can take those frequently posted but scantly justified opinions for whatever their worth. If Onetimer has any specific argument that would help persuade others you are correct, I would be happy to hear it.

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I sat down with Coach Idalski yesterday and this is what he had to say.

I don't take any issue with Collinsworth saying: "I kind of went over there to watch a women’s hockey game, but I saw a hockey game. Those women are really talented.” He's admitting he was completely ignorant, and now he knows better. I don't have energy to get mad at people for being later in seeing the light on women's hockey. And it's informative to others who have the ignorant view that they too can be changed.

I would be more annoyed if this was being said by someone who'd been selected for some significant commentary or intermission analysis during the women's hockey game, in which case it reveals they're totally unqualified to comment on the women's game. That has happened on occasion. If this was just some fairly mindless studio banter unrelated to any event in particular, then I'm fine with it. No one is an expert on every Olympic event and everyone learns something new each year.

[ARM]

All I'm saying on Kessel is that it's unreasonable to infer that because she was so far above everyone else in 2013, that she would certainly be the clear superstar in this Olympics, given her injury and the general patterns I've mentioned above.

I agree. Other than goaltenders, I'm not sure that anyone has been that dominant over the years in US/Canada match ups. Canada has more people that show up consistently, but part of that is due to Canada's overall depth, the US can't afford to focus too much attention on any specific threat. But in a year like 2002, Canada was very physical against the Granato, Wendell, and Darwitz line and took Darwitz out of the game completely. They looked to take a similar approach against Coyne yesterday. The problem any US forward has is once Canada becomes aware that she can be a game changer, Canada knows that if they neutralize her the odds will be in their favor. A US line chart typically has fewer players that can be the hero versus Canada on any given day, particularly when the stakes are highest.

[OneTimer]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I agree. Other than goaltenders, I'm not sure that anyone has been that dominant over the years in US/Canada match ups. Canada has more people that show up consistently, but part of that is due to Canada's overall depth, the US can't afford to focus too much attention on any specific threat. But in a year like 2002, Canada was very physical against the Granato, Wendell, and Darwitz line and took Darwitz out of the game completely. They looked to take a similar approach against Coyne yesterday. The problem any US forward has is once Canada becomes aware that she can be a game changer, Canada knows that if they neutralize her the odds will be in their favor. A US line chart typically has fewer players that can be the hero versus Canada on any given day, particularly when the stakes are highest.

Houle, Plumer, Mandigo, Frost all have multiple championships on their resumes just for starters. Look at Dineens' resume on HockeyDB then also look at his family background. It is not even close.

[hockey13]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

It is not even close.

I’m really just trying to make sure that we’re not slipping into easy stereotypes that men are better coaches, refs etc. because they are men and have coached in men’s leagues - that no female college coach could ever be better than any NHL coach.
Especially in a women’s hockey forum, it’s not great to be making knee-jerk evaluations of that kind. And – to be very clear - you may be doing absolutely nothing of the sort. Maybe you just think Stone isn’t that good and you don’t want to engage in character assassination on this board. I am not saying that I think she’s better than Dineen or that you are wrong that it is “not even close.” But it doesn’t ring positively for posters to just write Stone off b.c. Dineen has coached in the NHL. On paper, at least, Stone is very qualified and has advantages of experience in coaching women’s hockey that are undeniable.
With the refs, for example, there’s no doubt the officiating has been horrible. But it’s been horrible because the refs are inexperience at this level, not because they are women. Women refs have been pushed in way over their heads since the sport first appeared in the Olympics b.c. people felt women ought to be officiating women’s games. That is a great long-term goal, but by shoving people with a year or two of experience reffing at ANY level into college and Olympic games, it just help perpetuate the incorrect stereotype that female refs are worse than male refs, period.
Anyway, this is starting to sound like a soapbox (?starting?), but avoiding the specter of the stereotypes I mention above is the only reason I asked my question.

[hockey13]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Onetimer has been posting for a while that Dineen is a great hire, Stone is no good, and the U.S. would be better off with Kevin Houle or anyone as its head coach. You can take those frequently posted but scantly justified opinions for whatever their worth. If Onetimer has any specific argument that would help persuade others you are correct, I would be happy to hear it.

Got it.

[hockey13]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Houle, Plumer, Mandigo, Frost all have multiple championships on their resumes just for starters. Look at Dineens' resume on HockeyDB then also look at his family background. It is not even close.

So, you're mostly looking at male, DIII coaches (with Plumer who recently made the switch to DI). Ok. I don't think I'd pick my Olympic team's coach based on "family background." That really has nothing to do with anything.

[OneTimer]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Stone has a solid, strong resume hockey background. She has earned that. My comments go to the issue of the volume of overall hockey and coaching done by Dineen vs Stone as the focal point for the current Olympics. In this context it is not even close. Up to a point it is apples and oranges of 100+ years of NHL history and Maybe 30+ years of women's hockey history. The intense amount of work for details, video, practices, bench time, player management an NHL coach coach does in one season far exceeds what ANY collegiate coach does.

Simply do a line by line yearly comparison of the HockeyDB resume of Dineen vs Stone and my point should be clear. Dineen has played in nearly 1200 NHL games before he even started coaching.

It is my opinion that at the Olympic level issues of women can coach a women's team better goes out the window. These veteran, elite players want the best coaching available to them thus Dineen is a great choice. He is a decisive advantage for Team Canada.