2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

[LynahFan]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Serious question....how so? Please give some examples with actual figures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fe...1940to2012.svg

The debt grew from 34% of GDP in 2000 to 40% in 2008 - definitely bad. Since 2008, it's grown to more than 70% of GDP.

Serious question: how is that NOT worse?

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Worse?????

Medicare Prescription D - Unpaid for.
NCLB- Unpaid for.
Two Wars - Unpaid for.

Obama isn't even close.

You are wandering. The budget deficit numbers were bad under Bush, but got worse under Obama. But, I'm sure you think those numbers are just another conservative plot or something and we're not actually running aground fiscally at a faster and faster pace. Who knows, the next Republican president may be even worse than Bush or Obama. It's hard to stop a runaway train.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I call BS Bob. You were nowhere to be found criticizing Bush until his poll numbers went south and he was about to lose the Congress. Only then did you and your ilk suddenly become concerned about a 1T tax giveaway to campaign contributors and a 1T unfunded and needless Iraq war, both of which were enacted years earlier. You can tell yourself differently if it lets you get some sleep at night, but nobody, and I mean nobody, is buying it.

Next, saying Obama is worse than Bush on spending is stark raving stupid. Bush left Obama with an over 1T dollar deficit, even though he inherited a surplus 8 years earlier. This would be the equivalent of Obama running a 2T a year deficit in 2016. Instead, he's cut the annual deficit in half.

Your memory is slipping. I blasted Bush for deficit spending through most of his presidency around here. Some other areas I thought he did a better job. Fiscally Bush was a failure. The deficit has grown much more under Obama than under Bush. The basic numbers don't lie.

[burd]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fe...1940to2012.svg

The debt grew from 34% of GDP in 2000 to 40% in 2008 - definitely bad. Since 2008, it's grown to more than 70% of GDP.

Serious question: how is that NOT worse?

My point in bringing Bush into this discussion was not to beg the question of who was worse, though I have my opinions on that. My point was that Obama inherited an economy that was in a free-fall. Even the Bush administration recognized that drastic measures were needed to stop this precipitous fall, beginning with his 700 B spending bill just before he left.

Obama did not inherit the same situation that Bush did, so his policies were influenced accordingly. He had to do more of what Bush did with the bailout, steps that were not necessary in 2000, when Bush came in.

Do I blame the crash/near crash on Bush? No, it's more complex than that I think, at least to me. But given the truly scary situation the economy was in when Obama stepped in requires that his success be measured in large part on how he successful he has been avoiding disaster--and I don't think disaster is an inappropriate word, given where we were.

Before you compare Bush to Obama you have to take into account what the score was, how many were on base, who was at the plate, and how many were out when they took the ball. When Bush took the mound, the bases were clear and he was facing the bottom of the order. He gave the ball to Obama with the bases loaded, nobody out and the number two hitter at the plate.

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fe...1940to2012.svg

The debt grew from 34% of GDP in 2000 to 40% in 2008 - definitely bad. Since 2008, it's grown to more than 70% of GDP.

Serious question: how is that NOT worse?

Because we are turning the Titanic here. Yes the debt has grown, but the deficit has gotten smaller every year. The only way to eventually shrink the debt is to turn the deficit into a surplus, and I don't see how you can say we are getting WORSE when it comes to that?? We are at least moving in the right direction, how is that worse than when we were sprinting away from the finish line?

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Because we are turning the Titanic here. Yes the debt has grown, but the deficit has gotten smaller every year. The only way to eventually shrink the debt is to turn the deficit into a surplus, and I don't see how you can say we are getting WORSE when it comes to that?? We are at least moving in the right direction, how is that worse than when we were sprinting away from the finish line?

Yes, it is good that the number got a bit smaller this year than last year, but given the size it's still at, the overall debt is still ballooning at a rapid pace. It's like saying I'm getting further behind on my mortgage payments all the time, but I did pay a little part of it this month, so I'm better off. Such reasoning just doesn't make sense when you look at the big picture. And that's without talking about boomers retiring, health care costs spiraling upward, unfunded federal pensions, etc. Really there's very little about the federal government that is remotely financially on solid ground.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

My point in bringing Bush into this discussion was not to beg the question of who was worse, though I have my opinions on that. My point was that Obama inherited an economy that was in a free-fall. Even the Bush administration recognized that drastic measures were needed to stop this precipitous fall, beginning with his 700 B spending bill just before he left.

Obama did not inherit the same situation that Bush did, so his policies were influenced accordingly. He had to do more of what Bush did with the bailout, steps that were not necessary in 2000, when Bush came in.

Do I blame the crash/near crash on Bush? No, it's more complex than that I think, at least to me. But given the truly scary situation the economy was in when Obama stepped in requires that his success be measured in large part on how he successful he has been avoiding disaster--and I don't think disaster is an inappropriate word, given where we were.

Before you compare Bush to Obama you have to take into account what the score was, how many were on base, who was at the plate, and how many were out when they took the ball. When Bush took the mound, the bases were clear and he was facing the bottom of the order. He gave the ball to Obama with the bases loaded, nobody out and the number two hitter at the plate.

Fair points, but you also have to consider that Obama has tried to pump up spending more and more at every turn. If it weren't for the fiscally conservative tea party republicans in Congress, who have fought a rearguard action against more spending, the deficit numbers would be even more hideous.

But, hey, big picture both parties largely seem to be happy to drive this country off a financial cliff, as long as they can push off the cliff a bit further out.

[LynahFan]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Because we are turning the Titanic here. Yes the debt has grown, but the deficit has gotten smaller every year. The only way to eventually shrink the debt is to turn the deficit into a surplus, and I don't see how you can say we are getting WORSE when it comes to that?? We are at least moving in the right direction, how is that worse than when we were sprinting away from the finish line?

Well, give Obama a gold medal (or a Nobel peace prize), then. We're moving in the wrong direction more slowly than we used to be - fantastic news! Is that really the standard now?

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Yes, it is good that the number got a bit smaller this year than last year, but given the size it's still at, the overall debt is still ballooning at a rapid pace. It's like saying I'm getting further behind on my mortgage payments all the time, but I did pay a little part of it this month, so I'm better off. Such reasoning just doesn't make sense when you look at the big picture. And that's without talking about boomers retiring, health care costs spiraling upward, unfunded federal pensions, etc. Really there's very little about the federal government that is remotely financially on solid ground.

Sure it's just like saying that about the mortgage.....except it isn't. We aren't behind on our payments. It's like buying a bigger house every year and taking out a bigger mortgage every time, but still being able to pay it. Is it sustainable over the long term? No. I don't think anyone is saying that. But other than very slowly and over a long period of time how would you propose tackling the issue? Any "quick" fix to get rid of the deficit is going to have major impacts that won't help the situation. We are at a point where talking about reducing the debt shouldnt even be part of the discussion, the discussion should be about how to best reduce the deficit. Even that is not a short term git-r-dun thing, it will take time. I fail to see how at least starting to move in the right direction is disastrous for the country?

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Well, give Obama a gold medal (or a Nobel peace prize), then. We're moving in the wrong direction more slowly than we used to be - fantastic news! Is that really the standard now?

Big problems that take decades to create are big problems that will take decades to fix. Are you saying that since we cant fix it by tomorrow we shouldn't even try?

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Sure it's just like saying that about the mortgage.....except it isn't. We aren't behind on our payments. It's like buying a bigger house every year and taking out a bigger mortgage every time, but still being able to pay it. Is it sustainable over the long term? No. I don't think anyone is saying that. But other than very slowly and over a long period of time how would you propose tackling the issue? Any "quick" fix to get rid of the deficit is going to have major impacts that won't help the situation. We are at a point where talking about reducing the debt shouldnt even be part of the discussion, the discussion should be about how to best reduce the deficit. Even that is not a short term git-r-dun thing, it will take time. I fail to see how at least starting to move in the right direction is disastrous for the country?

Except there is little real, honest talk about knocking this down. They always commit to reducing things ten years down the road and then within a few years that deal is forgotten and the next batch of politicians coming into the Beltway make the situation worse by spending more without finding matching revenue (that's another discussion of course). As bad as the numbers are, and they are pretty awful, the tone and lack of gumption amongst most politicians to even talk honestly about the problem is to me even more unsettling. There is no political will to address this or even talk about it honestly.

[LynahFan]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Big problems that take decades to create are big problems that will take decades to fix. Are you saying that since we cant fix it by tomorrow we shouldn't even try?

Heck, no. I'm saying we should try harder, and that we need real leaders to step up, take on special interests, and be honest with the people that more short-term pain is necessary and worth it in order to avoid longer term disaster. Instead, we get timid half-measures because OMFG the poll numbers! I can't blame any president for not getting a balanced budget passed (since it requires agreement from at least 269 other people to get it done) , but I can definitely blame a president for not even *proposing* one. Even if you don't get it passed, that would at least frame the debate and the resulting compromise would be a whole lot closer to fiscal sanity.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Heck, no. I'm saying we should try harder, and that we need real leaders to step up, take on special interests, and be honest with the people that more short-term pain is necessary and worth it in order to avoid longer term disaster. Instead, we get timid half-measures because OMFG the poll numbers! I can't blame any president for not getting a balanced budget passed (since it requires agreement from at least 269 other people to get it done) , but I can definitely blame a president for not even *proposing* one. Even if you don't get it passed, that would at least frame the debate and the resulting compromise would be a whole lot closer to fiscal sanity.

Wow, we're speaking in lock-step on this one! Now that doesn't happen every day!

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

wow, we're backing away from our crazy going in position to something much more reasonable in lock-step on this one! Now that doesn't happen every day!

fyp

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

fyp

not backing away from anything. I don't get what you think you fixed.