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A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

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  • #76
    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    From research it would seem 1st class tickets were no more than $275 US back then. Still trying to read up on whether or not passengers were ever held back on lower decks.
    Last edited by Slap Shot; 04-15-2012, 09:02 PM.

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    • #77
      Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

      Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
      Couple things - my son swears first class tickets were no more than $275 at the time and from research it appears passengers from lower decks were held below for quite some time.
      Your son is wrong on both. The most expensive first class tickets were for the two Parlor suites (as seen in the movie Titanic) which were about $5k (about $80k in today) and that was only one-way. The third class were not kept below, but information was not as quickly or effectively disseminated, 47% of the women and children in third class made it to the lifeboats and survived (this was a higher percentage than the first class male passengers at 31%).
      Last edited by Almington; 04-15-2012, 09:11 PM.

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      • #78
        Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

        Originally posted by Almington View Post
        Your son is wrong on both. The most expensive first class tickets were for the two Parlor suites (as seen in the movie Titanic) which were about $5k (about $80k in today) and that was only one-way. The third class were not kept below, but information was not as quickly or effectively disseminated, 47% of the women and children in third class made it to the lifeboats and survived (this was a higher percentage than the first class male passengers at 31%).
        As I've said, Cameron's film is "history" primarily in its extraordinarily accurate recreation of the ship and what life was like on it. As to the realities of the disaster, there are wide gaps. 100 years later and cops in London generally aren't armed, yet Cameron has a teen age steward not only armed, but shooting passengers. He absolutely smears Mr. Murdoch, who certainly made an error in judgement in turning the wheel hard over and reversing the engines. But Cameron has him shooting passengers, taking a bribe and generally behaving like a swine, not one atom of which comports with survivor testimony. And for those, like Cameron, who keep flogging the class distinction chimera, it's worth repeating over and over the fact that 3rd class women and children had a better chance of surviving than 1st class men.

        As I posted earlier, it's really a shame that this film, like Stone's "JFK", has become the template which millions of us who aren't fascinated by these tragedies use to make our judgements about what "really" happened. In Stone's case, it's just about everything claimed. In Cameron's it's what he included and what he left out: Californian, Carpathia, etc. Cameron, as I've posted, recreated exactly the carpeting in the First Class dining room. How could such attention to detail leave him willing to smear a hero (Murdoch) who gave his life trying to help passengers get off safely in the boats? Surely he should have had as much desire to treat Murdoch accurately as he did in the carpeting. Evidently not. A real shame.

        What films like "Titanic" and "JFK" in theory accomplish is to interest folks in the subject enough to get them to want to know more and to do some reading. And I'm certain that happened in both cases. However, these were two magnificently made, enormously entertaining films which probably induced far greater numbers into thinking how accurate they were. Ironically causing their misrepresentations to be unnoticed, ignored or excused by credulous people. My niece, her husband and I saw "Titanic" together and many of the scenes were just stupifying, particularly the getting underway sequence, and especially the engine room. And all that life aboard ship stuff. I found myself saying "look at that," more than once. Yet once the collision happened, I found myself telling them that didn't happen and that didn't happen quite a lot.. Cameron had a great opportunity, $200 million dollar budget, and he really missed his chance. He wasn't making a documentary, but it seems to me he had a responibility to tell the truth and not make up stuff. The truth of that story is enough to make it "a night to remember." Wallace Hartley and the other musicians continuing to play in the face of certain death. Hundreds of crewmen who labored on, keeping her floating with the lights on as long as possible, also in the face of certain death. Mr. and Mrs. Strauss. Benjamin Guggenheim who was adamant that no woman was going to die because he got a place in a lifeboat: "We have dressed in our best and are prepared to go down like gentlemen." The steward who gave Minnie Coutts his lifebelt and said: "There madame, if you are saved, pray for me."

        BTW, your contributions here have been terrific, having at least one Titanicophile among the posters made my decision to start this thread worthwhile. Thanks.
        Last edited by Old Pio; 04-15-2012, 11:31 PM.
        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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        • #79
          Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

          Originally posted by Almington View Post
          Your son is wrong on both. The most expensive first class tickets were for the two Parlor suites (as seen in the movie Titanic) which were about $5k (about $80k in today) and that was only one-way. The third class were not kept below, but information was not as quickly or effectively disseminated, 47% of the women and children in third class made it to the lifeboats and survived (this was a higher percentage than the first class male passengers at 31%).

          http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=16
          http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=17
          http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org...tml?1284863221
          http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org...tml?1072777463

          While there were some parlor suites that went for around $4k those were very rare, but I should have been careful in stating the most common prices.

          Also your numbers about survivors mean little - men stood back across the board. There was evidence given at the inquiry that suggests that initially some of the gates (which existed for fear of spreading disease) remained locked for some time up until (it's believed) the first lifeboat began being lowered.

          Here's one account anyway: http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org...te-murphy.html
          Last edited by Slap Shot; 04-15-2012, 10:48 PM.

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          • #80
            Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

            Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
            http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=16
            http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=17
            http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org...tml?1284863221
            http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org...tml?1072777463

            While there were some parlor suites that went for around $4k those were very rare but I should have been careful in stating the most common prices. And I wasn't referring to Cameron's movie for questions about passengers being held back. Give me some credit. Ratio of survivors:

            RATIO of SURVIVORS
            Women & Children Men Total
            First Class 94% 31% 60%
            Second Class 81% 10% 44%
            Third Class 47% 14% 25%
            Crew 87% 22% 24%

            Those figures do not prove that at no point were any passengers held back (men remained on board in all classes) - it was a big fukking boat.
            I assumed you weren't relying on Cameron. There were two parlor suites, one port one starbord. each of which had a long, private stretch of the boat deck. Absolutely unheard of in that day. And J. P. Morgan (the owner of I. M. M. which actually owned the White Star Line) was scheduled to occupy one but changed his plans at the last moment.

            And that link to "Bob" indicates there are some gaps in his knowledge. When he says the Titanic was about as luxurious as other big steamers of the day, he's just wrong. Cunard, because of loans and other business connections with the government, had superior power plants in the Lusitania and Mauretania. They were built for speed. The Titanic and her sisters were built for comfort, luxury, capacity and opulence. Titanic had the first a la Carte restaurant ever on a ship. Captain Smith ate there frequently. Titanic had a Palm Court, with wicker furniture and palm trees, and actual French waiters to complete the illusion. A mind boggling selection of decors in the first class cabins, the magnificent "grand stair case," swimming pool, gymnasium and a host of other features that were either unique to her or bigger and better than comparable facilities on other ships. She was definitely a step up from what was available elsewhere. 2nd class on Titanic was the equal of 1st class on many other ships.

            Far more problematic for 3rd class passengers reaching the boat deck was their distance from it and the layout of the ship. There is no convincing evidence any gate was "locked."
            Last edited by Old Pio; 04-15-2012, 10:57 PM.
            2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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            • #81
              Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

              Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
              Cunard, because of loans and other business connections with the government, had suoperior power plants in the Lusitania and Mauretania. They were built for speed.
              My understanding is that the UK government subsidized the cost of the the Lusitania and Mauritania because in the event of war they were to be handed over to the government and used as armed merchant vessels to commerce raid against the opposition.

              The SS Californian (the ship which did not respond to the Titanic's distress signals) was also owned by International Mercantile Marine Co. but it was operated under the Leyland Line.

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              • #82
                Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                Originally posted by Almington View Post
                My understanding is that the UK government subsidized the cost of the the Lusitania and Mauritania because in the event of war they were to be handed over to the government and used as armed merchant vessels to commerce raid against the opposition.

                The SS Californian (the ship which did not respond to the Titanic's distress signals) was also owned by International Mercantile Marine Co. but it was operated under the Leyland Line.
                Right. And any claim or suggestion the Titanic was trying to capture The Blue Riband (symbol of holding the crossing speed record) is just false. Although not slow by any means, she could not keep up with the Cunard greyhounds and everyone knew it. Certainly E.J. Smith, J. Bruce Ismay and Thomas Andrews.
                2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                • #83
                  Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                  Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                  Far more problematic for 3rd class passengers reaching the boat deck was their distance from it and the layout of the ship. There is no convincing evidence any gate was "locked."
                  Absolutely true on the former, perhaps not on the latter (at least not in the way depicted in the movie). http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/titanic.php

                  Were the third class passengers really locked below as the movie Titanic suggests?
                  Yes, but not exactly in the way that the film implies. Titanic history tells us that gates did exist which barred the third class passengers from the other passengers. However, these gates weren't in place to stop a third class passenger from taking a first class passenger's seat on a lifeboat. Instead, the gates were in place as a regulatory measure to prevent the "less cleanly" third class passengers from transmitting diseases and infections to the others. This would save time when the ship arrived in New York, as only the third class passengers would need a health inspection.

                  At the time of the sinking, some stewards kept gates locked waiting for instructions, while others allowed women and children to the upper decks. As a result of poor communication from the upper decks, the dire reality of the situation was never conveyed. The crew failed to search for passengers in the cabins and common areas, and the fact that some third class passengers did not speak English, also presented a problem. As a result, many of the third class passengers were left to fend for themselves. Only 25 percent of the third class passengers survived the disaster.
                  And if there was a Kate Murphy on board she's been reported as claiming there were gates in place.

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                  • #84
                    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                    Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
                    Absolutely true on the former, perhaps not on the latter (at least not in the way depicted in the movie). http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/titanic.php



                    And if there was a Kate Murphy on board she's been reported as claiming there were gates in place.
                    3rd class was located in the bow and stern (separated based on marital status, you didn't want all those randy young immigrant dudes sleeping in the same part of the ship as the Irish lasses) and several decks down from the boat deck. And since much of the space between them and the boat deck was "off limits," it's not hard to imagine they'd have a tough time finding their way up. While there may have been a few "little Napoleons" who didn't want 3rds to encroach on other areas, there's no evidence any gates were locked, nor that those occasional, brief encounters with early edition Barney Fifes had any significant impact on who got to the boat deck and who didn't. As Almington has said, there were definite language problems. And there were fewer crewmen assigned to notify 3rd class of the situation. And no guidelines for what to do in an emergency. No PA system. No lifeboat drills. All of these contributed. Hundreds did make it up and were seen by survivors retreating from the advancing water. If the early boats had gotten off fully loaded another 4 or 500 could have been saved. But the loss of life was going to be horrific, no matter what.

                    This concern about whether 3rd class was mistreated is not new and was a major focus of the American inquiry. And it's certainly true some in 3rd did face some resistance from the crew. What Camoron did was blow smoke into those class concerns and pump them up beyond reality. IMO, this aspect of the tragedy has been blown way out of proportion, and Cameron is chiefly responsible.
                    Last edited by Old Pio; 04-15-2012, 11:39 PM.
                    2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                    • #85
                      Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                      Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                      3rd class was located in the bow and stern (separated based on marital status, you didn't want all those randy young immigrant dudes sleeping in the same part of the ship as the Irish lasses) and several decks down from the boat deck. And since much of the space between them and the boat deck was "off limits," it's not hard to imagine they'd have a tough time finding their way up. While there may have been a few "little Napoleons" who didn't want 3rds to encroach on other areas, there's no evidence any gates were locked, nor that those occasional, brief encounters with early edition Barney Fifes had any significant impact on who got to the boat deck and who didn't. As Almington has said, there were definite language problems. And there were fewer crewmen assigned to notify 3rd class of the situation. And no guidelines for what to do in an emergency. No PA system. No lifeboat drills. All of these contributed. Hundreds did make it and were seen by survivors retreating from the advancing water. If the early boats had gotten off fully loaded another 4 or 500 could have been saved. But the loss of life was going to be horrific, no matter what.

                      This concern about whether 3rd class was mistreated is not new and was a major focus of the American inquiry. What Camoron did was blow smoke into those class concerns and pump them up beyond reality. IMO, this aspect of the tragedy has been blown way out of proportion, and Cameron is chiefly responsible.
                      By the standards of today you could argue that they were mistreated based on the lack of effort put into communication by some of the crew members (other crew members did everything in their power to try and help everyone they could). At the time, 3rd class passengers (or lower class persons in general) dying from quasi-neglect wasn't particularly uncommon or noteworthy.

                      In general, trying to evaluate actions of the past based on currently acceptable moral standards results in significant misunderstanding and mischaracterization of what happened and why it happened.
                      Last edited by Almington; 04-15-2012, 11:41 PM.

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                      • #86
                        Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                        Originally posted by Almington View Post
                        By the standards of today you could argue that they were mistreated based on the lack of effort put into communication by some of the crew members (other crew members did everything in their power to try and help everyone they could). At the time, 3rd class passengers (or lower class persons in general) dying from quasi-neglect wasn't particularly uncommon or noteworthy.
                        Yeah, that scene in "Night to Remember," where the staff is decorously knocking on 1st class cabin doors, politely announcing that the captain wants you into the boats, and helpfully producing the life belts compares with the guy in 3rd class, yelling at the top of his lungs (because that makes foreigners understand what you're saying) and telling one obvious non English speaker to get his life belt on "chop chop." Of course, today, the older, uglier flight attendants seem to always be in coach. And there are always fewer of them, too. And the food and beverage service is way worse. But you're right, what happened in 3rd class to our eyes does seem callous and neglectful. It's the way things were. But that was a century ago. Things are better now, thank God. What was it Scrooge said: "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
                        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                        • #87
                          Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                          Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                          Yeah, that scene in "Night to Remember," where the staff is decorously knocking on 1st class cabin doors, politely announcing that the captain wants you into the boats, and helpfully producing the life belts compares with the guy in 3rd class, yelling at the top of his lungs (because that makes foreigners understand what you're saying) and telling one obvious non English speaker to get his life belt on "chop chop." Of course, today, the older, uglier flight attendants seem to always be in coach. And there are always fewer of them, too. And the food and beverage service is way worse. But you're right, what happened in 3rd class to our eyes does seem callous and neglectful. It's the way things were. But that was a century ago. Things are better now, thank God. What was it Scrooge said: "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
                          Different for sure, better in some ways, but I don't think that the idea of "Women and Children First" held when the Costa Concordia sank this year.

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                          • #88
                            Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

                            Originally posted by Almington View Post
                            Different for sure, better in some ways, but I don't think that the idea of "Women and Children First" held when the Costa Concordia sank this year.
                            No and what was the fairly recent ship wreck where it was "Captain First?" That wasn't the Costa Concordia, was it?

                            I have read that on the Titanic there was a problem carrying out the "women and children first" dictum. On one side (port?) it was interpreted as "women and children ONLY) on the other, "women and children first."
                            Last edited by Old Pio; 04-16-2012, 12:06 AM.
                            2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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