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Thread: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

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    Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate Almington's Avatar
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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Pio View Post
    Cunard, because of loans and other business connections with the government, had suoperior power plants in the Lusitania and Mauretania. They were built for speed.
    My understanding is that the UK government subsidized the cost of the the Lusitania and Mauritania because in the event of war they were to be handed over to the government and used as armed merchant vessels to commerce raid against the opposition.

    The SS Californian (the ship which did not respond to the Titanic's distress signals) was also owned by International Mercantile Marine Co. but it was operated under the Leyland Line.
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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Almington View Post
    My understanding is that the UK government subsidized the cost of the the Lusitania and Mauritania because in the event of war they were to be handed over to the government and used as armed merchant vessels to commerce raid against the opposition.

    The SS Californian (the ship which did not respond to the Titanic's distress signals) was also owned by International Mercantile Marine Co. but it was operated under the Leyland Line.
    Right. And any claim or suggestion the Titanic was trying to capture The Blue Riband (symbol of holding the crossing speed record) is just false. Although not slow by any means, she could not keep up with the Cunard greyhounds and everyone knew it. Certainly E.J. Smith, J. Bruce Ismay and Thomas Andrews.

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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Pio View Post
    Far more problematic for 3rd class passengers reaching the boat deck was their distance from it and the layout of the ship. There is no convincing evidence any gate was "locked."
    Absolutely true on the former, perhaps not on the latter (at least not in the way depicted in the movie). http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/titanic.php

    Were the third class passengers really locked below as the movie Titanic suggests?
    Yes, but not exactly in the way that the film implies. Titanic history tells us that gates did exist which barred the third class passengers from the other passengers. However, these gates weren't in place to stop a third class passenger from taking a first class passenger's seat on a lifeboat. Instead, the gates were in place as a regulatory measure to prevent the "less cleanly" third class passengers from transmitting diseases and infections to the others. This would save time when the ship arrived in New York, as only the third class passengers would need a health inspection.

    At the time of the sinking, some stewards kept gates locked waiting for instructions, while others allowed women and children to the upper decks. As a result of poor communication from the upper decks, the dire reality of the situation was never conveyed. The crew failed to search for passengers in the cabins and common areas, and the fact that some third class passengers did not speak English, also presented a problem. As a result, many of the third class passengers were left to fend for themselves. Only 25 percent of the third class passengers survived the disaster.
    And if there was a Kate Murphy on board she's been reported as claiming there were gates in place.

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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    Absolutely true on the former, perhaps not on the latter (at least not in the way depicted in the movie). http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/titanic.php



    And if there was a Kate Murphy on board she's been reported as claiming there were gates in place.
    3rd class was located in the bow and stern (separated based on marital status, you didn't want all those randy young immigrant dudes sleeping in the same part of the ship as the Irish lasses) and several decks down from the boat deck. And since much of the space between them and the boat deck was "off limits," it's not hard to imagine they'd have a tough time finding their way up. While there may have been a few "little Napoleons" who didn't want 3rds to encroach on other areas, there's no evidence any gates were locked, nor that those occasional, brief encounters with early edition Barney Fifes had any significant impact on who got to the boat deck and who didn't. As Almington has said, there were definite language problems. And there were fewer crewmen assigned to notify 3rd class of the situation. And no guidelines for what to do in an emergency. No PA system. No lifeboat drills. All of these contributed. Hundreds did make it up and were seen by survivors retreating from the advancing water. If the early boats had gotten off fully loaded another 4 or 500 could have been saved. But the loss of life was going to be horrific, no matter what.

    This concern about whether 3rd class was mistreated is not new and was a major focus of the American inquiry. And it's certainly true some in 3rd did face some resistance from the crew. What Camoron did was blow smoke into those class concerns and pump them up beyond reality. IMO, this aspect of the tragedy has been blown way out of proportion, and Cameron is chiefly responsible.
    Last edited by Old Pio; 04-15-2012 at 11:39 PM.

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    Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate Almington's Avatar
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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Pio View Post
    3rd class was located in the bow and stern (separated based on marital status, you didn't want all those randy young immigrant dudes sleeping in the same part of the ship as the Irish lasses) and several decks down from the boat deck. And since much of the space between them and the boat deck was "off limits," it's not hard to imagine they'd have a tough time finding their way up. While there may have been a few "little Napoleons" who didn't want 3rds to encroach on other areas, there's no evidence any gates were locked, nor that those occasional, brief encounters with early edition Barney Fifes had any significant impact on who got to the boat deck and who didn't. As Almington has said, there were definite language problems. And there were fewer crewmen assigned to notify 3rd class of the situation. And no guidelines for what to do in an emergency. No PA system. No lifeboat drills. All of these contributed. Hundreds did make it and were seen by survivors retreating from the advancing water. If the early boats had gotten off fully loaded another 4 or 500 could have been saved. But the loss of life was going to be horrific, no matter what.

    This concern about whether 3rd class was mistreated is not new and was a major focus of the American inquiry. What Camoron did was blow smoke into those class concerns and pump them up beyond reality. IMO, this aspect of the tragedy has been blown way out of proportion, and Cameron is chiefly responsible.
    By the standards of today you could argue that they were mistreated based on the lack of effort put into communication by some of the crew members (other crew members did everything in their power to try and help everyone they could). At the time, 3rd class passengers (or lower class persons in general) dying from quasi-neglect wasn't particularly uncommon or noteworthy.

    In general, trying to evaluate actions of the past based on currently acceptable moral standards results in significant misunderstanding and mischaracterization of what happened and why it happened.
    Last edited by Almington; 04-15-2012 at 11:41 PM.
    I might have chosen to be a BADGER but I will NEVER be a Wisconsinite; I will ALWAYS and FOREVER be a MINNESOTAN and proud of it.

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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Almington View Post
    By the standards of today you could argue that they were mistreated based on the lack of effort put into communication by some of the crew members (other crew members did everything in their power to try and help everyone they could). At the time, 3rd class passengers (or lower class persons in general) dying from quasi-neglect wasn't particularly uncommon or noteworthy.
    Yeah, that scene in "Night to Remember," where the staff is decorously knocking on 1st class cabin doors, politely announcing that the captain wants you into the boats, and helpfully producing the life belts compares with the guy in 3rd class, yelling at the top of his lungs (because that makes foreigners understand what you're saying) and telling one obvious non English speaker to get his life belt on "chop chop." Of course, today, the older, uglier flight attendants seem to always be in coach. And there are always fewer of them, too. And the food and beverage service is way worse. But you're right, what happened in 3rd class to our eyes does seem callous and neglectful. It's the way things were. But that was a century ago. Things are better now, thank God. What was it Scrooge said: "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

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    Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate Almington's Avatar
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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Pio View Post
    Yeah, that scene in "Night to Remember," where the staff is decorously knocking on 1st class cabin doors, politely announcing that the captain wants you into the boats, and helpfully producing the life belts compares with the guy in 3rd class, yelling at the top of his lungs (because that makes foreigners understand what you're saying) and telling one obvious non English speaker to get his life belt on "chop chop." Of course, today, the older, uglier flight attendants seem to always be in coach. And there are always fewer of them, too. And the food and beverage service is way worse. But you're right, what happened in 3rd class to our eyes does seem callous and neglectful. It's the way things were. But that was a century ago. Things are better now, thank God. What was it Scrooge said: "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
    Different for sure, better in some ways, but I don't think that the idea of "Women and Children First" held when the Costa Concordia sank this year.
    I might have chosen to be a BADGER but I will NEVER be a Wisconsinite; I will ALWAYS and FOREVER be a MINNESOTAN and proud of it.

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    Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Almington View Post
    Different for sure, better in some ways, but I don't think that the idea of "Women and Children First" held when the Costa Concordia sank this year.
    No and what was the fairly recent ship wreck where it was "Captain First?" That wasn't the Costa Concordia, was it?

    I have read that on the Titanic there was a problem carrying out the "women and children first" dictum. On one side (port?) it was interpreted as "women and children ONLY) on the other, "women and children first."
    Last edited by Old Pio; 04-16-2012 at 12:06 AM.

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