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Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

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  • #61
    Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

    Originally posted by walrus View Post
    Is white Hispanic on the census form? I never heard of a white Hispanic until this case.
    I believe the "credit" for that formulation belongs with the NYT, which has a vested interest in keeping the "white guy kills innocent black kid (with "Skillets") narrative going as long as possible. If Zimmerman is "white," then so is the president.
    2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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    • #62
      Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

      Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
      If Zimmerman is "white," then so is the president.
      The president is white.

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      • #63
        Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

        Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
        Agree 100%.

        From what I've read, Zimmerman sure seemed to be the aggressor in this situation. HE was the one to confront Martin, was he not?
        If there's a trial, the jurors will decide the answer to that question. As I posted last night, Dershowitz thinks the charging document is so legally insufficient that there's a good chance a judge will throw the whole thing out. Admittedly that would take a brave judge. And Dershowitz is an opinion machine. But he is a lawyer, and a very prominent one at that, who has won some very big cases along the way (right, Claus?), so maybe we ought to give his opinion some credit.

        Was this community watch organization in compliance with whatever rules apply in Florida? Was it recognized by the management of the complex? Zimmerman was licensed to carry that gun, which means he had to jump through some hoops to get the license. Possibly some training on its use. I was in a Fry's grocery store a week ago and a guy dressed like Paul Brinigar in "Rawhide" was fondling the vegetables, wearing a belt with a holstered six shooter on one hip and a Bowie knife on the other. Nobody was paying him a bit of attention (except possibly me).

        I've posted before about this magical belief gun types have that "if only somebody had been armed it would have turned out differently." What they NEVER consider is the "difference" they're talking about could mean a higher body count of innocents. Sure, if some kid at Virginia Tech had been armed, maybe he could have gotten Woo Tang Klan between the antlers. But your average college kid, in an extraorinarily tense, target rich environment is just as likely to miss or hit someone else, IMO. Am I supposed to feel a constitutional glow because some ATO pledge hit my daughter in the face?
        Last edited by Old Pio; 04-13-2012, 06:12 PM.
        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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        • #64
          Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

          Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
          What they NEVER consider is the "difference" they're talking about could mean a higher body count of innocents. Sure, if some kid at Virginia Tech had been armed, maybe he could have gotten Woo Tang Klan between the antlers. But your average college kid, in an extraorinarily tense, target rich environment is just as likely to miss or hit someone else, IMO. Am I supposed to feel a constitutional glow because some ATO pledge hit my daughter in the face?
          The other thing that's usually ignored: you have to think the police really appreciate arriving at a chaotic scene with several gunshot victims, where multiple shooters have taken cover and are trying to pick each other off. The police I've seen interviewed invariably say that they would appreciate the added challenge. It's just too easy when you don't have to worry about which one is the bad guy.
          1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1995 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2012(!)

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          • #65
            Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

            Re: race, just because the police didn't give the shooter a break because he's white doesn't mean that they failed to fully prosecute a crime against a black victim.

            Maybe the trial will turn up a good reason why the police didn't pursue anything. But until that happens, I think you have to give a pass to the black community. Based on the available evidence, they have a right to be pizzed.

            As for the bad intentions of Zimmerman -- in an ideal world, they'd be irrelevant. The police would have brought Zim in, conducted a full investigation, and left it to a grand jury to make the call whether there was enough evidence for a formal charge.

            As I understand it, the hate crime angle was just a pragmatic strategy to get a legal foothold for holding the police accountable, via (federal) supremacy.
            1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1995 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2012(!)

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            • #66
              Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

              Originally posted by amherstblackbear View Post
              Re: race, just because the police didn't give the shooter a break because he's white doesn't mean that they failed to fully prosecute a crime against a black victim.

              Maybe the trial will turn up a good reason why the police didn't pursue anything. But until that happens, I think you have to give a pass to the black community. Based on the available evidence, they have a right to be pizzed.

              As for the bad intentions of Zimmerman -- in an ideal world, they'd be irrelevant. The police would have brought Zim in, conducted a full investigation, and left it to a grand jury to make the call whether there was enough evidence for a formal charge.

              As I understand it, the hate crime angle was just a pragmatic strategy to get a legal foothold for holding the police accountable, via (federal) supremacy.
              Sadly, in minds of some, everytime a black is killed by a white, it is not automatically a hate crime, but probably is. From where I sit, whenever a black guy kills a white it's NEVER a hate crime, but that's a different argument for a different thread. IMO, that's why there's been so much attention paid to the question of whether or not Zimmerman uttered a racial slur. He apparantly said "effing punks," which some creative types have said sounds like "effing c*ons" (an amazingly old fashioned insult for such a young guy).It's been amusing to hear CNN and others say words to the effect that "we've been unable to come to a consensus as to what, exactly, he said." Yeah. Because if they could, they'd be assuring us he DID use a slur, so that means he absolutley didn't.

              That story about Zimmerman leafleting in black neighborhoods, buttonholing worshippers on their way out of church, to demand justice in the case of a cop killing involving a homeless black dude, if true, doesn't exactly argue that he's a racist. And honesty requires us to take notice that he's had black defenders all along. Again, not exactly what you'd expect if he were a murderous racist. Not dispositive. But if he were a racist, you would have expected that we would have heard about it by now.
              Last edited by Old Pio; 04-13-2012, 06:28 PM.
              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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              • #67
                Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                Originally posted by Rover View Post
                I also think we can't discount that fact that Florida is a backwards, sh ! tty state that has trouble doing basic governmental tasks right, be it prosecutions (Casey Anthony) or even counting votes.....
                Land Of Losers
                a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

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                • #68
                  Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                  Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                  All of these questions about injuries will be cleared up by actual witnesses, under oath, who either saw or treated Zimmerman. If he sought medical help for his nose the next day (as has been reported) then there will surely be a record of his visit, x-rays, and a doctor who can testify about his diagnosis. This will take it out of the hands of Chris Mathews and other wanna-bes, but will nevertheless be dispositive.
                  I don't want to over-simplify the case, but from my armchair this seems to be a significant key to all of this. If they can demonstrate that Zimmerman had bruises it will significantly increase his defense case, support the argument he was acting in self-defense and perhaps negate any arguments about whether or not he should have been there in the first place/initiated said confrontation.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                    If there's a trial, the jurors will decide the answer to that question. As I posted last night, Dershowitz thinks the charging document is so legally insufficient that there's a good chance a judge will throw the whole thing out. Admittedly that would take a brave judge. And Dershowitz is an opinion machine. But he is a lawyer, and a very prominent one at that, who has won some very big cases along the way (right, Claus?), so maybe we ought to give his opinion some credit.

                    Was this community watch organization in compliance with whatever rules apply in Florida? Was it recognized by the management of the complex? Zimmerman was licensed to carry that gun, which means he had to jump through some hoops to get the license. Possibly some training on its use. I was in a Fry's grocery store a week ago and a guy dressed like Paul Brinigar in "Rawhide" was fondling the vegetables, wearing a belt with a holstered six shooter on one hip and a Bowie knife on the other. Nobody was paying him a bit of attention (except possibly me).

                    I've posted before about this magical belief gun types have that "if only somebody had been armed it would have turned out differently." What they NEVER consider is the "difference" they're talking about could mean a higher body count of innocents. Sure, if some kid at Virginia Tech had been armed, maybe he could have gotten Woo Tang Klan between the antlers. But your average college kid, in an extraorinarily tense, target rich environment is just as likely to miss or hit someone else, IMO. Am I supposed to feel a constitutional glow because some ATO pledge hit my daughter in the face?
                    I believe so. Though when the police came and met with the neighborhood watch association, they explicitly told them not to do some of the things Zimmerman did (carry guns, follow "suspects", etc.).

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                    • #70
                      Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                      Interestingly enough, despite all the handwringing about this being a radical vs radical discussion (nationally) there seems to be more common ground than not in general (in this thread) and perhaps the basket destined for hell has been temporarily delayed.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                        Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
                        Interestingly enough, despite all the handwringing about this being a radical vs radical discussion (nationally) there seems to be more common ground than not in general (in this thread) and perhaps the basket destined for hell has been temporarily delayed.
                        We've been pretty responsible. A word generally not in use to describe "The Reverands" or the New Black Panther Party, or the Nazis or any other exrtremist group or indiviual who are attaching themselves to this case like barnacles. That goes double for MSNBC, which figures deliberately lying on Zimmerman is acceptable "journalism." BTW, there was a lot of blog talk a few days about about Nazis and "armed patrols." The police deny it. I'm wondering if there really are or have been Nazis patrolling. Or is this more of the hyperbole surrounding this sad event? With a bow to Jake Blues: "I hate Illinois Nazis (or Nazis from any other state)."
                        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                          personally, I feel like the nation stepped up to the brink on this one, looked down and took a step back. scary stuff from both sides.
                          Originally posted by mtu_huskies
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                          • #73
                            Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                            Originally posted by huskyfan View Post
                            personally, I feel like the nation stepped up to the brink on this one, looked down and took a step back. scary stuff from both sides.
                            The sad irony is this incident didn't have to take place. Trayvon's girl friend says she told him to run. The 911 dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that," when Zimmerman said he was following the kid. If each had acted on that advice, nothing would have happened.

                            There have been a tiny handful of horrific incidents. I'm thinking particularly of the 15 year old Latino kid stomped so badly by a half a dozen black kids that teeth were literally kicked from his head. They said they were doing it for Trayvon. Again, miniscule sample size. And you're basically right, IMO. Only a small fringe of Americans have the "forever Selma" outlook that nothing's changed and the whole nation is racist. However, that's what keeps the biscuits and gravy on "The Reverands'" plates (along with the "skillets.")
                            Last edited by Old Pio; 04-13-2012, 09:45 PM.
                            2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                              Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                              There have been a tiny handful of horrific incidents. I'm thinking particularly of the 15 year old Latino kid stomped so badly by a half a dozen black kids that teeth were literally kicked from his head. They said they were doing it for Trayvon.
                              Oh dear.

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                              • #75
                                Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                                Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                                There have been a tiny handful of horrific incidents. I'm thinking particularly of the 15 year old Latino kid stomped so badly by a half a dozen black kids that teeth were literally kicked from his head. They said they were doing it for Trayvon. Again, miniscule sample size. And you're basically right, IMO. Only a small fringe of Americans have the "forever Selma" outlook that nothing's changed and the whole nation is racist. That's what keeps the biscuits and gravy on "The Reverands'" plates (along with the "skillets.")
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