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Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

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  • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

    Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    No more needs to be said as I've made my point on poster priorities...you could set your watch by SS showing up when someone posts the word gun.

    In the past, I actually have no problem answering tangents...but when answered, posters don't stay there...they turn into an endless stream of other tangents. Its already happened here. I don't mind answering challenges...but then I do, a poster ignores it, forcing me to repeat myself, which they then continue to ignore again. And although I am off to Monty again this summer, I never respond to those on a message board who have asked to meet in person.

    Based on a legitimate challenge, I've tried to discuss the actual defense of my position: there are negative court room justice implications...but no positive justice implications of STG. Some like Garcia are getting off whereas they otherwise would be locked up forever and possible murderers won't even see a day in court as they're not being arrested. And in the end, nobody else addresses my defense that the law only provides negative justice outcomes in the court room...nor does anyone go near explaining why in their opinion this is great for court room justice...so forget the 'discussion'.
    It occurs to me your argument is a mirror image of a favorite gun nut assertion: "If only somebody had a gun, the outcome would have been different." They're referring to mass shooting incidents, like Virginia Tech. And they're saying how great it would have been if somebody had plugged Woo Tang Klan early on. And they're right, if the shooter hits what he's aiming at. There's just as much chance, maybe more, that the shooter would have hit another student or a teacher. That would have made the outcome different, only not in the way they mean. The point is, gun nuts NEVER consider the downside possibilities, only the upside.

    You, on the other hand, only consider the downside of stand your ground: innocent people are going to get killed for no good reason, and the shooters are going to claim self-defense, and hesto presto, they're released. What you never consider (at least you don't share it with us) is the upside: that by using lethal force instead of trying to run away (a neat trick in your own home) some innocent people will avoid being killed because they will have defended themselves by killing the bad guy.

    In it's own way, your arguments here have been as pig headed and one sided as any gun nut. Just from the opposite direction.
    Last edited by Old Pio; 05-01-2012, 07:11 AM.
    2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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    • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

      Why not require a gun safety class (how to clean the weapon and hit what you're aiming at, etc.) before you're allowed to actually own a gun? It would be just like getting a drivers license. Sure there will still be accidents, but I bet they would be way below what we have now.

      States could even coop the NRA into giving the lessons.

      However, hitting targets is one thing. Putting a round into the 10 ring on another human being is another.
      CCT '77 & '78
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      • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
        No more needs to be said as I've made my point on poster priorities...you could set your watch by SS showing up when someone posts the word gun.
        Apparently agreeing with stringent background checks, agreeing with businesses having the right to ban guns on their premises, believing gun ownership is a government granted privilege and not a God-given right, agreeing an argument can be made for gun safety classes to be able to own, and believing every Joe shouldn't be able to buy whatever weapon they want makes me a gun nutter. Oh, and Trent Lott sucks too.

        Disagree with my points all you want, but brandishing a label without cause doesn't cut it.
        Last edited by Slap Shot; 05-01-2012, 04:25 PM.

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        • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

          Originally posted by joecct View Post
          Why not require a gun safety class (how to clean the weapon and hit what you're aiming at, etc.) before you're allowed to actually own a gun? It would be just like getting a drivers license. Sure there will still be accidents, but I bet they would be way below what we have now.

          States could even coop the NRA into giving the lessons.

          However, hitting targets is one thing. Putting a round into the 10 ring on another human being is another.
          The problem is that gun rights are guaranteed in the Constitution, in very nearly as prominent of a spot (amendment #2) as freedom of press, speech, and religion. So the analogy would be that you are only allowed freedom of the press if you can pass a grammar test. Somehow I don't think anyone would even consider going for that, but lots of people see no issue in trimming away at gun rights.

          Disclaimer: I am not a gun nut, and I personally believe that there should be far more stringent limits in place than we have today. I'm not even convinced that the right to own a gun should be in the constitution at all - but there it is, and until we decide to change the Constitution, that's what we're stuck with..
          If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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          • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

            Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
            The problem is that gun rights are guaranteed in the Constitution, in very nearly as prominent of a spot (amendment #2) as freedom of press, speech, and religion. So the analogy would be that you are only allowed freedom of the press if you can pass a grammar test. Somehow I don't think anyone would even consider going for that, but lots of people see no issue in trimming away at gun rights.

            Disclaimer: I am not a gun nut, and I personally believe that there should be far more stringent limits in place than we have today. I'm not even convinced that the right to own a gun should be in the constitution at all - but there it is, and until we decide to change the Constitution, that's what we're stuck with..
            Add to the 2nd Amendment a recent Supreme Court decision (which both sides had avoided for years) that upheld the rights of Americans to own guns and cast aside the "well ordered militia" clause. I, too, am not a gun nut. Paraphrasing Dennis Miller: "When did the NRA get so bleeping cranky?" There was a time NRA was all about the joys of shooting and passing those joys down from father to son. And gun awareness and safety. Now it's a whole different ball game. After the Branch Davidians murdered ATF agents attempting to serve a valid warrant in Waco, Wayne LaPierre referred to them as "jack booted government thugs." These were law enforcement officers, attempting to do their jobs, gunned down in cold blood. I've always thought the vast majority of NRA members were disgusted by that language and that point of view. At least I hope they were.

            Here in Phoenix, I occasionally see guys wearing guns squeezing the melons in grocery stores. It's vaguely unnerving. While I'm not suggesting anyone who posts here of this, it's apparant to me there's a confluence of effort between the anti-smoking and anti-gun types. Many really want total prohibition (a much tougher proposition with guns) but won't admit it. They rely instead on gradually increasing government regulations and hope, that like the frog, people won't notice the water's getting hotter and jump out of the pot.These situations aren't directly analogous, of course. In the case of guns, a total prohibition would still leave the millions of weapons alreaday out there. Confiscation on that scale would be, uh, complicated. The NRA bumper sticker that if you take guns away from "law abiding" citizens, only criminals will have guns has a definite ring of truth about it.

            The worry here is a wave of murders, disguised as self-defense. What we're relying on are hypotheticals, conjectures and speculation. It seems to me the buried premise of these arguments is that, faced with a claim of "standing my ground," cops will just accept that at face value, clap the shooter on the back and head back to the barn (especially if the shooter is white and the victim black). In the Zimmerman case they hauled him into the police station, in cuffs, and questioned him. They questioned witnesses. And presumably eyeballed the body. An autopsy was performed. And, if needed, the backgrounds of the principals were investigated. All of this and more will come out at trial. It's true their initial conclusion was that Zimmerman had a legitimate claim of self defense. His subsequent indictment is a wholly political act, which Dershowitz has described at "criminal and stupid." However,that initial self-defense finding did not preclude subsequent charges based on additional testimony or evidence.

            To me, the bottom line here is this case. This is the source of all the hyperventilating about "stand your ground." I confess, I'm a little uncomfortable with it. But the fact is, no jury is going to convict a citizen for failing to try to run away in the face of a bad guy with evil intentions, regardless of "stand your ground." If this case had been the racial reverse, I doubt we'd be having these conversations. We've been treated to fraudulent media coverage of the event, all designed to prove some point or another, without regard to elemental fairness. You expect that from race pimps, not from "legacy" networks.

            Bottom line, if there's a real problem with "stand your ground," the legislatures that passed it can reconsider, based on facts, not surmises.
            Last edited by Old Pio; 05-01-2012, 06:53 PM.
            2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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            • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

              Interesting piece about how Trayvon's parents, in their grief, have found the strength to capitalize big time on the death of their son. They and an enormous cast of other "grief stricken" people. Is it appropriate for the parents to cash in on their son's death in such crass and vulgar ways? Turns out as far as the parents are concerned, the best thing that ever happened to them was their son's death.

              http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...ondon-england/
              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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              • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                Interesting piece about how Trayvon's parents, in their grief, have found the strength to capitalize big time on the death of their son. They and an enormous cast of other "grief stricken" people. Is it appropriate for the parents to cash in on their son's death in such crass and vulgar ways? Turns out as far as the parents are concerned, the best thing that ever happened to them was their son's death.

                http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...ondon-england/
                You think that's bad? You should see what the parents of Jack Jablonski have done. It's truly shameful.
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                • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                  Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                  You think that's bad? You should see what the parents of Jack Jablonski have done. It's truly shameful.
                  I'm not aware. But whatever they've done doesn't excuse Martin's parents. Especially since this case, unlike Jablonski's, hasn't exacerbated race relations, in a swing state, in an election year. The latest count I'm aware of involving beatings of whites by blacks who make reference to "Trayvon" is 15. That's not statistically significant in a country of well over 300 million. But isn't it enough for POTUS to say something?
                  2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                  • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                    I'm not aware. But whatever they've done doesn't excuse Martin's parents. Especially since this case, unlike Jablonski's, hasn't exacerbated race relations, in a swing state, in an election year. The latest count I'm aware of involving beatings of whites by blacks who make reference to "Trayvon" is 15. That's not statistically significant in a country of well over 300 million. But isn't it enough for POTUS to say something?
                    Interesting. I didn't mean to directly compare the two situations, I was more referring to the parents exploiting their situations.
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                    Originally posted by SanTropez
                    May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                    Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                    I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                    Originally posted by Kepler
                    When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                    He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                    • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                      Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                      Interesting. I didn't mean to directly compare the two situations, I was more referring to the parents exploiting their situations.
                      I understand. Since I'm not aware of it, what have they done? To me, providing for the boy's medical expenses and long term care beyond insurance coverage, doesn't strike me as unacceptable. If they've done more than that: "You know, we really need a 50 inch HD TV in the den and a new Navigator and an extended trip to Europe, in 5 star hotels," then that's not acceptable.
                      2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                      • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                        Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                        I understand. Since I'm not aware of it, what have they done? To me, providing for the boy's medical expenses and long term care beyond insurance coverage, doesn't strike me as unacceptable. If they've done more than that: "You know, we really need a 50 inch HD TV in the den and a new Navigator and an extended trip to Europe, in 5 star hotels," then that's not acceptable.
                        It's not the fundraising I have an issue with, it's really the way they've gone about it. I mean, people who work behind the scenes tell me things that make me absolutely disgusted. They basically require places to treat them as royalty as they go about their fundraising. This is of course just the tip of the iceberg. I really don't want to steer the thread away from Zimmerman but it's just tiring to hear about the story everywhere I go after hearing things.
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                        College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                        BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                        Originally posted by SanTropez
                        May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                        Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                        I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                        Originally posted by Kepler
                        When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                        He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                        • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                          Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                          It's not the fundraising I have an issue with, it's really the way they've gone about it. I mean, people who work behind the scenes tell me things that make me absolutely disgusted. They basically require places to treat them as royalty as they go about their fundraising. This is of course just the tip of the iceberg. I really don't want to steer the thread away from Zimmerman but it's just tiring to hear about the story everywhere I go after hearing things.
                          Well, I guess we should think more about a boy who's facing a clouded future. And less about imperious parents and their shortcomings.
                          2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                          • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                            Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                            Well, I guess we should think more about a boy who's facing a clouded future. And less about imperious parents and their shortcomings.
                            OP-With all the information put out there and all the rhetoric-I am lost-was an autopsy performed on Trayvon? Or do we only have the report of the funeral director as to his findings?
                            Take the shortest distance to the puck and arrive in ill humor

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                            • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                              Originally posted by DrDemento View Post
                              OP-With all the information put out there and all the rhetoric-I am lost-was an autopsy performed on Trayvon? Or do we only have the report of the funeral director as to his findings?
                              Seems to me I recall reading they did a post (legally required, I'm guessing). To my knowledge the results have not been leaked. The mortician, who has a long history of political activism, helpfully announced that he didn't see any injuries to Trayvon's hands. Which would suggest there was no beating of Zimmerman. Which would reinforce the narrative of an out of control racist shooting black kids for sport. It remains to be seen if his observations are accurate.
                              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                              • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                                Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                                Seems to me I recall reading they did a post (legally required, I'm guessing). To my knowledge the results have not been leaked. The mortician, who has a long history of political activism, helpfully announced that he didn't see any injuries to Trayvon's hands. Which would suggest there was no beating of Zimmerman. Which would reinforce the narrative of an out of control racist shooting black kids for sport. It remains to be seen if his observations are accurate.
                                As a physician i would be very interested in the post autopsy findings. Hopefully blood was sent for toxicology also. I would hope that this information is made public similar to all the other information that has been released by the media.
                                Take the shortest distance to the puck and arrive in ill humor

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