Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

    Did Zimmerman identify himself as a member of neighborhood to Martin watch before or after dispatch told him to leave the kid alone? Probably neither. If you're acting as an arm of the law, you have to identify yourself as such when trailing suspicious individuals. That's how it works. Maybe deadly force was warranted. But it was Zimmerman's responsibility to identify himself before doing so.
    St. Cloud, Minnesota: You could do worse...

    It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys.

    The 2009 Poser of the Year

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

      Originally posted by Dude Love View Post
      Did Zimmerman identify himself as a member of neighborhood to Martin watch before or after dispatch told him to leave the kid alone? Probably neither. If you're acting as an arm of the law, you have to identify yourself as such when trailing suspicious individuals. That's how it works. Maybe deadly force was warranted. But it was Zimmerman's responsibility to identify himself before doing so.
      I don't think Zimmerman was acting as "an arm of the law." He was armed, as private citizens with the proper permissions are allowed to be. But he had no arrest powers. No powers at all. And I doubt he had any requirement to identify himself as a member of the community watch group. He had the primary authority he needed: he was a resident of that complex. And, like any resident, had the right to ask someone what they're up to. Sadly, if the kid had said "I'm staying in unit 2340, with Ms. Jones and my dad", the whole thing might have been avoided. 911 dispatchers have no authority whatsoever over citizens. The guy said: "we don't need you to do that" which is a recommendation, not a binding order. Even so, perhaps you're right that he "should have identified himself" (assuming that he didn't). But what needs to be established here is whether there was one or two encounters. Did Zimmerman walk away, as he has said, and did the kid jump him? That would render almost all of what went before moot.
      2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

        Originally posted by WeWantMore View Post
        You don't. For Zimmerman to be let off, a jury is going to have to conclude that he reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. For me, a broken nose doesn't meet that standard. But then again, I wasn't on the ground (allegedly!) getting beat up.
        Legal standard obviously varies by jurisdiction, but great bodily harm generally means injuries requiring lengthy hospital stay, permanent or long-lasting damage, internal organ injuries, etc. I'm sure there's a model jury instruction in Florida for such occasions.

        In traditional criminal law, the use of a gun during a fist fight almost never qualifies as justifiable, unless the other guy's a professional boxer/martial artist/navy seal/etc. Obviously newer statutes may trump the traditional common law.

        Originally posted by Dude Love View Post
        If you're acting as an arm of the law, you have to identify yourself as such when trailing suspicious individuals.
        Uh, what? Maybe in Minnesota. Certainly not in most jurisdictions. (The whole "you have to tell me if you're a cop" routine is Hollywood malarky.)
        Last edited by unofan; 04-14-2012, 08:56 PM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

          Classic "blame the victim" mentality. Regardless of what color the sky is in your demented universe, if you're walking around with a loaded gun as a de facto security guard, you are "policing" an area. Some boob patrolling a mall isn't a real cop, but he sure as hell has a weapon and is subject to the same rules as a police officer. Like I said...Zimmerman's actions may have been justified if he hadn't screwed up the one thing that law enforcement in this country is supposed to believe: innocent until proven guilty. He's likely gonna get nailed good.
          St. Cloud, Minnesota: You could do worse...

          It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys.

          The 2009 Poser of the Year

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

            Originally posted by unofan View Post
            Uh, what? Maybe in Minnesota. Certainly not in most jurisdictions. (The whole "you have to tell me if you're a cop" routine is Hollywood malarky.)
            Uhh...I'm pretty sure they still yell "police, freeze" when aiming their weapon at someone.
            St. Cloud, Minnesota: You could do worse...

            It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys.

            The 2009 Poser of the Year

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

              Originally posted by Dude Love View Post
              Classic "blame the victim" mentality. Regardless of what color the sky is in your demented universe, if you're walking around with a loaded gun as a de facto security guard, you are "policing" an area. Some boob patrolling a mall isn't a real cop, but he sure as hell has a weapon and is subject to the same rules as a police officer. Like I said...Zimmerman's actions may have been justified if he hadn't screwed up the one thing that law enforcement in this country is supposed to believe: innocent until proven guilty. He's likely gonna get nailed good.
              Fermented, perhaps but not demented. Zimmerman had a carry permit, whether or not he was a member of a community watch group. And he was subject to whatever rules are in place for armed civilians, not police. Mall cops wear uniforms, some carry guns and wear mickey mouse badges. I'm guessing they are state sanctioned or licensed in some way. Community watch groups are not. I remember when the Guardian Angels started, police around the country opposed them, and they weren't even armed.

              I agree, guns can lead to tragedies, as in this case. But Zimmerman is allowed to defend himself. Innocent until proven guilty applies in court, not at night when somebody's pounding your head on the pavement. I've always gotten a sort of Barney Fife vibe off the guy. And various types have done their best to prejudice this case and so much is unknown that it's hard to know exactly what happened. The narrative here reminds me of the Duke "rape" case, where we just KNEW those boys were guilty. Until we found out they weren't. Many of us acted as if our prejudices against wealthy white jocks was evidence, or even relevant.

              As I say, the media have done their part to muddy the waters: NBC's malicious, fraudulent editing of sound, claims by audio "experts," using technology not generally admitted in court, that it was probably not Zimmerman's voice calling for help, an interview with an undertaker about the lack of injuries to Martin's hands (which is offered as evidence that he didn't struggle--meaning Zimmerman just gunned him down). Personally, I would prefer medical evidence to come from the medical examiner, rather than an undertaker. Grainy surveillance tape which may or may not show injuries to Zimmerman's head. That has lead certain "physicians" to allow that "he doesn't look hurt to me."

              So maybe we'll have to wait 'til the trial, if there is one. As I've said, Dershowitz thinks the charging document is so without merit and specifics that he thinks it's possible a judge will throw the whole thing out before trial. Others have pointed out that the "maybe the prosecutor has stronger evidence that she's holding back," is nonsense, because if she had the evidence she'd put in in the charging document.

              If there is a trial, it may not begin for up to a year. So we can be arguing about this case well into the future. A grisly prospect.
              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                OK...hold on. So I'm walking down the street at 2am walking my dog and someone charges at me. Even if I can't tell they're armed, I legally can blow their brains out (supposing I have a handgun permit) because I was physically threatened?
                St. Cloud, Minnesota: You could do worse...

                It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys.

                The 2009 Poser of the Year

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                  Originally posted by Dude Love View Post
                  OK...hold on. So I'm walking down the street and someone charges at me. Even if I can't tell they're armed, I legally can blow their brains out (supposing I have a handgun permit) because I was physically threatened?
                  I have no idea. Probably not. What does that have to do with this case? That is not what is alleged to have happened here. The permit allows you to carry the gun. It doesn't give you any special rights to shoot it.
                  2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                    I have no idea. Probably not. What does that have to do with this case? That is not what is alleged to have happened here. The permit allows you to carry the gun. It doesn't give you any special rights to shoot it.
                    Right. So why did Zimmerman shoot his? Because he was being physically threatened, right?
                    St. Cloud, Minnesota: You could do worse...

                    It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys.

                    The 2009 Poser of the Year

                    Comment


                    • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                      Originally posted by Dude Love View Post
                      Right. So why did Zimmerman shoot his? Because he was being physically threatened, right?
                      Only if you think a "threat" and having your nose broken and head slammed against the pavement are the same.
                      2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                        Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                        Only if you think a "threat" and having your nose broken and head slammed against the pavement are the same.
                        So basically Zimmerman was too big of a puss to fight fair? If he was a hockey player he wouldn't fight...he'd just wildly swing his stick the whole time. I declare box.

                        *****http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg338/scaled.php?server=338&filename=cardboardbox1.jpg&res=landing******
                        St. Cloud, Minnesota: You could do worse...

                        It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys.

                        The 2009 Poser of the Year

                        Comment


                        • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                          His attorney says Zimmerman was beat badly...obviously there's no witnesses and the claim is put out by someone trying to save himself. We'll see. At this point, Zimmerman's attorney claimed there was a broken nose. Subsequently, its been studied and this may not be the case.

                          Vidor Friedman, the president of the Florida College of Emergency Physicians, said footage of Zimmerman's face didn't appear to show a broken nose, ABC News reported.

                          "All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined," he said. "You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn't look like his nose was broken or badly broken."

                          In this case, there easily could be a different outcome between moral guilt and guilt under Florida laws as they exist.
                          Go Gophers!

                          Comment


                          • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                            Originally posted by Dude Love View Post
                            So basically Zimmerman was too big of a puss to fight fair? If he was a hockey player he wouldn't fight...he'd just wildly swing his stick the whole time. I declare box.

                            *****http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg338/scaled.php?server=338&filename=cardboardbox1.jpg&res=landing******
                            I'm too good a sport to note that you keep moving the goal posts on this argument. I've never had my nose broken and sincerely hope to keep that record in tact, but I'd imagine it can be an extremely disorienting thing, especially if the punch (or punches) is followed by someone on top of you, slamming your head on the pavement. It would certainly have been preferable if, instead of a gun, Zimmerman had a stick and was able to cross check the kid into the next time zone.
                            2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                              Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                              His attorney says Zimmerman was beat badly...obviously there's no witnesses and the claim is put out by someone trying to save himself. We'll see. At this point, Zimmerman's attorney claimed there was a broken nose. Subsequently, its been studied and this may not be the case.

                              Vidor Friedman, the president of the Florida College of Emergency Physicians, said footage of Zimmerman's face didn't appear to show a broken nose, ABC News reported.

                              "All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined," he said. "You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn't look like his nose was broken or badly broken."

                              In this case, there easily could be a different outcome between moral guilt and guilt under Florida laws as they exist.
                              I would prefer to rely on people who actually saw or teated Zimmerman. If, as we've been told, he sought medical attention after the event, then the X-rays and such should resolve the matter. Plus, sometimes X-rays are taken as a precaution. And I'm not sure I trust a "diagnosis" from a doctor so full of weasel words.

                              I believe the 13-year old "witness" claims to have seen Martin attacking Zimmerman.

                              You are right, we'll see. As to moral guilt, that would be a function of the courts in Iran. Our courts decide whether the evidence adduced is sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for breaking the law and to assess punishment. You know, there's a chance this whole matter was a conflation of bad judgements, bad timing, ineptness and punkishness.
                              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

                                Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                                I would prefer to rely on people who actually saw or teated Zimmerman. If, as we've been told, he sought medical attention after the event, then the X-rays and such should resolve the matter.
                                So why doesn't Zimmerman sign a release to allow his doctors to give their statements? Or ****, just get his medical records himself and release those? I mean, comeon, that'd be an easy step to take in the PR battle, if everything is as he says it is.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X