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Christ is Risen!

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  • Re: Christ is Risen!

    Foxton reviles all religion not just Christianity.

    Most of us "Non-Believers" don't much care as long as you keep your religion away from us. Problem is that doesnt happen often enough. I am happy you have your beliefs and that they help you live the life you want to lead but the second you preach to me or act even the slightest bit in judgement of me (which happens more often than you would think even with just the "semi-faithful") then guess what I am going to retort. This goes for any religion, including the faith I was raised Judaism. (and vice versa...I dont preach non-belief to people and scoff at the people who do) No matter what you think, you are not better than me and especially not because you memorized some passage from a book.

    Live and let live...you have your way I have mine. In the end that is all that matters
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    • Re: Christ is Risen!

      yes, I've met people who actually "revile" Christianity. Foxton for one. my son-in-law for another. my son-in-law actually "believes" that atheists are the one true proven belief. its not religion, its science! yeah right.
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      • Re: Christ is Risen!

        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
        There was plenty of political power. There were barons or strong men all over Europe. If anyone else would have done it, why didn't these barons lead or at least play a major role in all this enlightenment?

        In the end, it was Christians who did the work with Christianity driving the outcome. You might want to give little credit here...but its what actually happened.
        Now I've heard everything - Christianity drove the enlightenment. Black is white. Up is down.

        Unless, by some chance that you mean that the church tried to "drive" all the enlightened individuals out of society and thereby accidentally fanned the flames brighter than they otherwise would have been. Any relationship the church had with enlightenment was strictly a case of keeping their enemies closer.
        If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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        • Re: Christ is Risen!

          Originally posted by Handyman View Post
          Most of us "Non-Believers" don't much care as long as you keep your religion away from us. Problem is that doesnt happen often enough. I am happy you have your beliefs and that they help you live the life you want to lead but the second you preach to me or act even the slightest bit in judgement of me (which happens more often than you would think even with just the "semi-faithful") then guess what I am going to retort.
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          • Re: Christ is Risen!

            Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
            Any relationship the church had with enlightenment was strictly a case of keeping their enemies closer.
            I'd say it's more like the relation between car companies and consumer safety advocates. The institution tries everything it can to deny, defame, and delay. Once the writing is on the wall they run ads about how they were air bag pioneers.

            In this we should distinguish the bureaucratic and institutional (and coercive) mechanisms of religion from the religious faith itself. Churches may just be amoral tools to magnify the power of the individuals who control them, like governments or corporations. Their hierarchies may even be witting manipulators (show me a pope, president, or CEO, and before anything else I'll show you Tyrion Lannister). And true enough the broad mass of the congregation (or citizenry, or shareholders) are just trying to stay afloat in the world they happen to have been born into. BUT they also can't be divorced from their biographical context. We try to make, say, Roger Bacon into some sort of avant-garde secular humanist, but that's silly. We can't cut out the parts we don't like and say "well, those parts are environment, but within his breast there beat the heart of a 13th century Voltaire." Nonsense.
            Last edited by Kepler; 04-16-2012, 12:21 PM.
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            • Re: Christ is Risen!

              The cartoon is so true. People lose the message in being obsessed with the minutia and forgetting that Jesus was a rebel and ticked off the religious 'leaders' of the time. Feed the hungry, poor and widow is mentioned over 200 times. Homosexuality 8. Outrage regarding 'gay people'. Where is the righeous outrage about the starving poor? Instead they must be lazy. Makes me crazy. Someone posted this on FB a bit ago. It says what needs to be said.

              http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-chr...youre-gay.html
              and a response
              http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teen...youre-gay.html

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              • Re: Christ is Risen!

                Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                Now I've heard everything - Christianity drove the enlightenment. Black is white. Up is down.

                Unless, by some chance that you mean that the church tried to "drive" all the enlightened individuals out of society and thereby accidentally fanned the flames brighter than they otherwise would have been. Any relationship the church had with enlightenment was strictly a case of keeping their enemies closer.
                What happened to the point of your last post "that we don't know what would have happened if Christianity had not been the dominant religion" (which was addressed). Not to mention the previous post that you successfully raised your own issue of origination and then refuted it.

                I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.
                Go Gophers!

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                • Re: Christ is Risen!

                  Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                  The cartoon is so true. People lose the message in being obsessed with the minutia and forgetting that Jesus was a rebel and ticked off the religious 'leaders' of the time. Feed the hungry, poor and widow is mentioned over 200 times. Homosexuality 8. Outrage regarding 'gay people'. Where is the righeous outrage about the starving poor? Instead they must be lazy. Makes me crazy. Someone posted this on FB a bit ago. It says what needs to be said.

                  http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-chr...youre-gay.html
                  and a response
                  http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teen...youre-gay.html
                  True that the world would be better off if people (and not just Christians, but all of us) didn't scream at each other about issues, including on internet message boards, but instead got out there and did good to one another. That said, the Bible says what it says about all sorts of issues. Some things it says are in vogue right now, some not.
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                  Very well, said.
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                  A fair assessment Bob.

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                  • Re: Christ is Risen!

                    Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                    Foxton reviles all religion not just Christianity.

                    Most of us "Non-Believers" don't much care as long as you keep your religion away from us. Problem is that doesnt happen often enough. I am happy you have your beliefs and that they help you live the life you want to lead but the second you preach to me or act even the slightest bit in judgement of me (which happens more often than you would think even with just the "semi-faithful") then guess what I am going to retort. This goes for any religion, including the faith I was raised Judaism. (and vice versa...I dont preach non-belief to people and scoff at the people who do) No matter what you think, you are not better than me and especially not because you memorized some passage from a book.

                    Live and let live...you have your way I have mine. In the end that is all that matters
                    I may regret wading into this discussion but thought I'd throw something into the fray here.

                    One of the things that bothers most of the Christians and Catholics especially is the seemingly vile reaction to relatively inert things. For example filing lawsuite to remove Christmas trees or complaining about store greeters who wish you a merry christmas. That sort of thing really get people's defences up and turn up the religion because they feel the exact same thing is happening to them and they don't see it as throwing it in people's faces. If people can not take all this stuff so personally or be offended so easily that will solve many problems. I definitely agree with live and let live. So many problems would disappear if more lived my that motto.

                    And for the record if it gives me any credibility I was raised catholic but have rebelled a bit against the church. Still a believer but having your faith tested really makes you analyze what you believe and be more careful about blindly accepting things..

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                    • Re: Christ is Risen!

                      Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                      What happened to the point of your last post "that we don't know what would have happened if Christianity had not been the dominant religion" (which was addressed). Not to mention the previous post that you successfully raised your own issue of origination and then refuted it.

                      I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.
                      I had a pizza on Friday, 2/27/81. It was delicious. My BMI today is south of obese, but north of fit.

                      I think that's Lynah's point.
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                      • Re: Christ is Risen!

                        Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                        Foxton reviles all religion not just Christianity.
                        Indeed.

                        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                        What happened to the point of your last post "that we don't know what would have happened if Christianity had not been the dominant religion" (which was addressed). Not to mention the previous post that you successfully raised your own issue of origination and then refuted it.

                        I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.
                        No reason to consider such a hypothetical, when xtians aren't in control, the wealth of knowledge available grows. They still try to do it today with their attempts to bring down established scientific theories for their mindless nonsense. There are currently a handful of bills floating around in state legislatures that are trying to shove that foot in the door.

                        You seem hung up on the idea that they helped grow universities/libraries and so they also helped grow knowledge, when the latter only occurred when restrictions put in place by the religion were relaxed. "Paganism" was outlawed outright. If it didn't line up with their theocracy, it was eliminated.

                        It's a credit to those who did preserve that which was heretical in the face of divine doctrine. The world would truly be better off if putting on their bible glasses hadn't been the default. At least not every culture fell into the trappings of going from 'I wonder' to 'I know'.

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                        • Re: Christ is Risen!

                          Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                          I'm not going to recap a third time how earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church and that resulting conglomerate religious libraries are the basis of every modern library today...and no, I'm not following you on yet another tangent because I know it won't last more than a post.
                          This touches on how religious scholars tended to sow the seeds of irreligiosity.
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                          • Re: Christ is Risen!

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            This touches on how religious scholars tended to sow the seeds of irreligiosity.
                            Ya.

                            Regarding this Spong guy, IMO if one determines that the Bible is not strictly literal...pretty much the argument I heard is gone. This...more quickly then it took him to explain it. Afterall, the purpose of the Bible is not to describe reality...but rather to set up guidelines on how to live. And no Jesus is not floating around Venus.
                            Go Gophers!

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                            • Re: Christ is Risen!

                              Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                              Afterall, the purpose of the Bible is not to describe reality...but rather to set up guidelines on how to live. And no Jesus is not floating around Venus.
                              By what measure do you decide what is and what isn't literal? What part of it says not to take it literally when it describes reality?

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                              • Re: Christ is Risen!

                                Originally posted by Foxton View Post
                                By what measure do you decide what is and what isn't literal? What part of it says not to take it literally when it describes reality?
                                Treating as a serious question...

                                Many assume that the Bible is exactly literal if for no other reason because most books today are such. There is no place that it claims that each specific word is to be taken as is...but it does talk about the general message or 'word'.

                                Rather if you think about it at all, you reach the conclusion that ultimately the Bible is about Jesus...he's God or son of God, he came late, was documented and set the record straight. Well Jesus was all about stories and metaphors to make larger points. 'He without sin should cast the first stone'. This is obviously not about putting together laws on stoning...but rather a message about judgement. He did not spend his days putting together a legal system by the government should operate...but rather was putting together a system by which we should live. Its reinforced over and over again.

                                Thus as a collection of metaphors to set up an overall approach to life is what Jesus was all about (and he is essentially God)...why wouldn't the Bible do the same?
                                Last edited by 5mn_Major; 04-18-2012, 10:31 AM.
                                Go Gophers!

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