Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

[SteveF]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Not sure if I understand the point you are making in the quoted paragraph, but just in this century (12 regionals), Michigan has advanced to the FF 3 times in regionals not played in a building named Yost, 2001 out of the regional in Grand Rapids, 2008 out of the regional in Albany and 2011 out of the regional in St. Louis. None of those buildings were named Yost.

niagara clarkson mercyhurst st cloud omaha and colorado college. really?

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Onion's argument is mostly fact-free, so I don't need to spend much time with it. I'm amazed to see an argument as weak as "he lost to Air Force and Cornell in the tourney." Minnesota lost to Holy Cross. Denver lost to RIT. BC has lost to Cornell. Denver and BC have lost to other four seeds as one seeds. Every team occasionally loses when it shouldn't; to fault Michigan for doing this with unremarkable frequency is absurd.

Here's the thing with Berenson. He's old. He's a Michigan legend. He's a very good coach. But being a legendary old coach doesn't make him an elite coach. Honestly, I think he's flattered to be in the same sentence as York.

He's not at the same level as York, and nobody has argued that he is. Question: Is he at the same level as Jack Parker?

Michigan's NCAA streak is a wonderful thing. I'm envious. Believe me.

But is there another college hockey coach, anywhere in the country, who is better placed to produce those results than Red? Is any other program/coach even close?

Don Lucia

Over the past 20 years, the CCHA has inarguably been weaker than either the WCHA... or Hockey East

If we're talking about the last 20 years Red's argument is strengthened. To say that he has been weaker than expected over the last 14 years since his last title, but that part of the reason is that other conferences have been stronger over the "last 20" (a time period that conveniently emphasizes the strength of Maine and BU, which have been shadows of their former selves over the 14-year period in discussion except for "flashes") is poor logic. The fact is that if the disputed issue is Red's performance over the last 14 years, HEA has basically been a BC league with "flashes" from Maine, UNH, and BU, never at the same time. There has been slightly better NCAA performance, but the CCHA has certainly placed enough teams in the title game to suggest that the league is not a pushover. But then, Red's performance in league is not in dispute; Michigan wins with some frequency, and has made the conference finals at the Joe a staggering 24 years in a row.

Michigan's performance in the NCAAs over the past 15 years has been mediocre at best - and the reason it's even mediocre is that Michigan has profited from home cooking. In Michigan's last 13 regionals held at any arena in the country not named Yost, they've advanced to one FF. One. Twice they played at Yost; twice they advanced to the FF.

So Red's 3 for 15 (uscho.com archive era) Take away home cooking and he's 1 for 13. It's not unreasonable at all to extrapolate that, if Michigan played elsewhere in 2002 and 2003, they may have missed the FF, and then you're looking at a 1 for 15(!) conversion rate in advancing out of regionals.

So here's where we switch back to the years after Red has won the title, when it looks worse for him. And we're taking away Michigan's "home cooking" (if he gets dinged for Michigan's home-ice advantage, he must get credit for creating it in the first place, as Yost was a tomb before he arrived on campus) we need to take away regional advancements for BC and/or BU at Worcester, Minnesota's advancements from Minneapolis, and North Dakota's advancement from the Ralph, among others. We might as well completely re-write the tournament, which I guess would work for you since Maine would probably win in St. Paul in '02--but then that would delete one of Lucia's titles.

And that's despite all the things that Onion mentioned. I'm not getting into a MI/MN/MA contest, but there's no question Michigan is one of best "hockey" states. UM athletics is about as prestigious as it gets in collegiate sports -- and UM itself is only a shade below the Ivies. The location is favorable (to say the least) with respect to the national development program. It's also favorable for attracting Canadian talent. Sure, other schools are also near Canada. But while other schools are near Canadian trees and farmland, A2 is near Canadian people. Including young people who play hockey.

Michigan is a great place for hockey. Michigan also competes with Michigan State heads-up (which had Ron Mason for part of this) for top-level Michigan talent, and other schools get digs here and there. There is no advantage for local talent conferred on Michigan that is not shared by Minnesota in Minnesota or by BC in Massachussetts. But you're completely eliminating one important factor that Red has to battle more than any other coach in the country: The OHL.

BC doesn't have to compete with the OHL because it is in QMJHL territory, and the Q is a mess of treading-water teams. Minnesota and North Dakota do not have to compete with the WHL because it is much further away and the Minnesota hockey culture is uniquely college-oriented. Michigan, in contrast, competes straight-up against teams like London, which puts 10,000 fans in the stands 35-40 times a year at home, has lots of money, a huge fan base, and is not restricted to NCAA rules. And Kitchener. And Windsor. These are teams that hit below the belt. From a league that is thriving, that offers many things college does not, that is able to pressure its targets relentlessly and put them on the ice before they're even eligible for college. Michigan has lost star goaltenders, star forwards, and star defensemen to Major Junior in numbers not approached by other teams because they are not geographically subject to it. The surprise isn't that Michigan has underperformed; it is that they have remained consistent with so many defections. How many other coaches have had to put a career walk-on-backup on the ice as their top goaltender prospects get stolen before ever suiting up in consecutive years? None that I know of. Red took that walk-on to the NCAA title game, out of a regional that included Jerry York, Scott Owens, and Dean Blais. Mediocre indeed.

Michigan's geography is at least as much of a hindrance as it is a help.

Meanwhile, Minnesota remains a Gopher-first state. I live here, and it's amazing; no other college team in the country gets headline media treatment the way the Gophers do. And why not? They have a great arena, a huge fan base, and a long and rich tradition. They get their pick of players from the state and always have. The whole state hockey culture is set up in a way that benefits them, with high school-to-college transition highly emphasized in a way that is nonexistent in Michigan, where club and travel teams are the norm. The team is regularly pumped on local sports radio, including the flagship KFAN shows that syndicate throughout the state (I regularly get to hear Lou Nanne ruminate on the Gophers here in Duluth). Every home game is broadcast in HD on the local RSN. No other team has such advantages. Why is Michigan held to a higher standard?

Making the NCAAs is really the least one should expect from Michigan. Really, you'd like to see Michigan take advantage of its near-autoberth once the NCAA tournament starts.

Poor argument. If Michigan's conference is so weak then they need to perform better just to secure a berth every year; mid-pack WCHA teams have gotten into the tournament free by riding on the coattails of good PWR numbers, while Michigan has had to perform much better through the season to get in. You can't have it both ways.

And it's pretty nasty to hold Red accountable for making the tournament and not always getting very far, but ignoring other coaches missing out entirely.

York is clearly tops in the modern era. Then there's a group of coaches with 2 titles. I'm not sure I'd put Red at the top of that group.

Don Lucia? Really? He has a better arena, a better recruiting pipeline, fewer threats to lose players. He has had flameouts at least as embarrassing as Michigan's, and additionally he has flat missed the tournament on multiple occasions while fielding truly mediocre teams. He has not won since 2003.

George Gwozdecky? You can certainly argue that he's at least Red's equal, yet there have also been embarrassments, flameouts, and missed tournaments. Jack Parker? He's higher on the wins list, his overall record is outstanding, but again, the argument seems to be about the last 15 years, and while he has 1 title in that time BU has otherwise been a disappointing team.

What era are we talking about, here? If you include York's BG title (seems logical) as a part of the era then we are not just talking about the last 15 years. And if so we are including guys like Shaun Walsh and Ron Mason and Jeff Jackson in the discussion. And if so, Red has built a program from ashes to be a giant in the sport.

Nobody has argued that he is as accomplished as York, or that he should be put in a category above the Parkers, Lucias, Gwozdeckys, and Masons of the world. I think that York is the best of the era (I have said so in plain, easy-to-understand language that left no ambiguity) and that after him there is a group of guys with a couple of titles and other long-standing success and that Red is squarely in that group, along with others. In my view it is hard for any of those coaches to be separated by "rank," as time periods and circumstances vary.

The argument ABB makes seems to be a case of deliberately moving the chronological pylons to damage Red's standing compared to... whom? Red has not been as good as Lucia in the last 15 years, but he has been as good in the last 16, and he has been better in the last 9. But then we're moving the pylons.

Are you concerned about Shaun Walsh's reputation? I haven't assailed it, nor has anyone else. This thread is about York.

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

... And the debate is about Berenson, but the board wouldn't let me complete my last thought.

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

I honestly feel bad that Berenson got dragged into this, since it's partly my fault. The purpose of my initial response in the thread was to profess my affection for Michigan and Berenson, and use that as context for my assessment of York.

The reason I did this is because true objectivity is difficult to achieve in sports, and particularly difficult to find on this board. We all see things through our own "rose (or maroon, or green-and-white, or Maize-and-Blue) colored glasses" and interpret things on that basis. I've never been a fan of the neutral-zone trap, for example, and while objectively people believe it makes for slower, boring hockey, that is also at least partly due to my affinity for offensive-juggernaut Michigan and Detroit Red Wing teams in the '90s that found the trap to be a nuisance rather than a usable strategy.

We all view things this way. It's a fact of life.

So when this thread was posted to evaluate York, I concurred with its premise: York is unquestionably the best coach of his era. I haven't researched enough to have opinions on other eras, but as a college hockey fan I understand that York is peerless.

To me, it is high praise to call someone the best of his era.

But it is higher praise to give a window into the perspective of a Michigan fan who wears his maize-and-blue glasses, dislikes BC as much as any other team in hockey (why? I cut my teeth on this board during the !!!! era), and still recognizes that York is a class act and unquestionably, by a wide margin, the great coach of the era. My mention of Red was from a purely subjective standpoint, not to identify him as any better than Lucia, Gwoz, or anyone else. I believe he is equal to them, but so what? They're not the coach of my team. Red is, and York is better than Red.

That's why I mentioned Red. Not to focus on him, but to demonstrate how highly I think of Jerry York. Why other people felt the need to address Red's record is their business.

[4four4]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

IMO, next year is the end of an era for college hockey starting in 2013 a brand new era begins. We don't know what the future unfolds but we are in for some change.

[solovsfett]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

I honestly feel bad that Berenson got dragged into this, since it's partly my fault. The purpose of my initial response in the thread was to profess my affection for Michigan and Berenson, and use that as context for my assessment of York.

The reason I did this is because true objectivity is difficult to achieve in sports, and particularly difficult to find on this board. We all see things through our own "rose (or maroon, or green-and-white, or Maize-and-Blue) colored glasses" and interpret things on that basis. I've never been a fan of the neutral-zone trap, for example, and while objectively people believe it makes for slower, boring hockey, that is also at least partly due to my affinity for offensive-juggernaut Michigan and Detroit Red Wing teams in the '90s that found the trap to be a nuisance rather than a usable strategy.

We all view things this way. It's a fact of life.

So when this thread was posted to evaluate York, I concurred with its premise: York is unquestionably the best coach of his era. I haven't researched enough to have opinions on other eras, but as a college hockey fan I understand that York is peerless.

To me, it is high praise to call someone the best of his era.

But it is higher praise to give a window into the perspective of a Michigan fan who wears his maize-and-blue glasses, dislikes BC as much as any other team in hockey (why? I cut my teeth on this board during the !!!! era), and still recognizes that York is a class act and unquestionably, by a wide margin, the great coach of the era. My mention of Red was from a purely subjective standpoint, not to identify him as any better than Lucia, Gwoz, or anyone else. I believe he is equal to them, but so what? They're not the coach of my team. Red is, and York is better than Red.

That's why I mentioned Red. Not to focus on him, but to demonstrate how highly I think of Jerry York. Why other people felt the need to address Red's record is their business.

Caustic, no need to explain yourself to a guy that just won't get it. your points have been very well reasoned, well articulated and well written.

I'm quite baffled as to what Onion Man really wants here...just to rile a Michigan fan? dunno

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Beats me what's up with Onion man. ABB, who is a longtime board participant, and the general discussion were more my targets.

[The Rube]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Onion is not really taken seriously amongst the masses, from what I've seen, and for good reason.

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Caustic, my choice of years was all about convenience. I didn't want to go beyond the ease and comfort of uscho.com.

Looking more carefully, I think there is more parity than I had realized. Basically, there was a 10 year stretch from the mid 90s to the mid 00s when UM accounted for almost all of the CCHA's FF berths, and both of its titles. You can't really point to a stretch where HEA and the WCHA were so lopsided. That period also coincided with my college-grad school years, when I followed college hockey most closely, so I probably tend to overemphasize it.

I think Parker is probably the closest comparison to Red. You can argue that both had their heyday in the 90s - both had stretches where they saw 6 FFs in a 7 year span. Berenson has been more consistent since then, making 3 of the last 10 FFs. Parker has missed a few tournaments, and only made one FF, but made it count. Their profiles aren't *all* that different.

As for the rest of the 2-title crowd? I think you have to say that the jury's still out. I don't lnow how many more years any of those guys have behind the bench, but they all have a bunch of years in hand on Red (72) and Jack (67). Lucia has almost 20 years in hand on Red. Jeff Jackson has a chance to make a move up, depending on how much longer he goes. He's only in his 50s. Gwoz has ~10-15 years on Jack and Red. Even Dean Blais has a decade in hand. He'll have his hands full in his current job, but it'll mean that much more if he can make something happen there.

Of course, as Walsh proves, you don't ever really know when someone's time will be up. So I'm not going to guess. If I'm still watching this sport in 20 years, I suspect things will be a lot clearer.

[JDUBBS1280]

I don't know about best ever, but I'd definitely put him well ahead of Herb Brooks.

Nice try.

[SCSU Euro]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Nice try.

As a coach, I wouldn't put him ahead of Brooks. But as purely a college coach, he's surpassed Herbie... and that's coming from a Minnesotan.

[JDUBBS1280]

As a coach, I wouldn't put him ahead of Brooks. But as purely a college coach, he's surpassed Herbie... and that's coming from a Minnesotan.

It's tough because Herbie only coached in college for a short time. Had he coached at this level longer, I think he would be at the top of the college coaching pyramid. You're right though, the fact that Herb's college career was so short hurts his case.

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Herb Brooks deserves a category all his own, unique in American coaching (in any sport, really). His college resume is decent but not otherworldly, but that's what happens when you move onto bigger and better things.

I don't think anyone begrudges him coaching in the NHL. And don't forget his lesser-known stint as the head coach for a Silver Medal in '02.

But of course, the biggest and best was 1980. Herb Brooks did not coach the Miracle on Ice as a college coach; he coached it as an American Hero. He is, deservedly, the best-known and most-respected man ever to coach in college hockey; but it wasn't because of what he did at Minnesota.

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

Nice try.

Try? Looks like I succeeded.

Took a while though. Worm was getting soggy.

[Handyman]

Re: Jerry York is the best NCAA hockey coach of the last 30 years, maybe of all-time

It is York and everyone else. At this point I am not sure there is anyone even worthy of being discussed as possibly being near him. I dont know about all time but of my lifetime there is no discussion.