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Thread: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

  1. #81
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That's a good idea.
    This go around the Dems actually really liked the new boundaries, while the Reps were quite unhappy. Of course in our setup, where the Dems appoint two to the panel, the Reps appoint two to the panel, and the fifth is chosen by those four, that fifth person weilds enormous power.

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    This go around the Dems actually really liked the new boundaries, while the Reps were quite unhappy. Of course in our setup, where the Dems appoint two to the panel, the Reps appoint two to the panel, and the fifth is chosen by those four, that fifth person weilds enormous power.
    I think you left something out Bob. Care to elaborate on what the GOP tried to do when they didn't get their way?
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I think you left something out Bob. Care to elaborate on what the GOP tried to do when they didn't get their way?
    Sorry I didn't provide you a complete legislative history of Arizona. I can't do everything for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Arizona has had a non-partisan board that sets district boundaries and has had this in place for a number of years. This was set up by ballot initiative.
    I made no comment on who did the gerrymandering, I was just commenting on how well it was done. There was a very clear move to make sure that the Indians in Northern Arizona had some input from the folks down south on who would represent them. Gerrymandering gets neither more effective, nor more obvious than in Arizona.
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    EVERYONE prefers the book. The movie was terrible.
    What about the computer game?
    Not sure any writer went down hill faster other than Orson Scott Card.
    I really hate the fact I get this reference.

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    This go around the Dems actually really liked the new boundaries, while the Reps were quite unhappy. Of course in our setup, where the Dems appoint two to the panel, the Reps appoint two to the panel, and the fifth is chosen by those four, that fifth person weilds enormous power.
    Again, a really good idea. What prevents it from degenerating into an exercise to protect incumbents?
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by duper View Post
    I made no comment on who did the gerrymandering, I was just commenting on how well it was done. There was a very clear move to make sure that the Indians in Northern Arizona had some input from the folks down south on who would represent them. Gerrymandering gets neither more effective, nor more obvious than in Arizona.
    I'm not really clear at what you're getting at. The tribal lands are huge, but the actual populations are relatively small (I know, having driven across the Navajo Reservation a number of times when visiting my future wife). The main issue I've ever heard here regarding tribal lands and elections is that it's a problem to have elections/primaries to early in the calendar year as it's harder to get around in some places on the Res, so they tend to have them a little later.

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Again, a really good idea. What prevents it from degenerating into an exercise to protect incumbents?
    I guess the Dems and Reps on the board could somehow bargain to do so for both sides, but it doesn't seem to have worked that way. I know this time there's a number of districts for both state and federal seats where multiple incumbents ended up in the same new district. In this case it was mostly Reps this happened to, one of the main reasons for their angst. It's certainly not a perfect way to do it, but probably better than the shenanigans that can go on when legislatures are directly involved.

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    We need to come up with a way to work the cake rule into redistricting.

    One side cuts the cake.

    The other side picks their slice first.
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    how does AZ2 make any sense geographcally? You've got a big piece of AZ2 inside AZ1 and only connected to the rest of AZ2 by a canyon.

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    I'm curious as to how others react to Obama's speech at the Associated Press luncheon this past Tuesday...it seemed a real odd tone to adopt so early in the year. Clearly it was a campaign speech, one also that burns bridges before they are even built. (to oversimplify, I think it is fair to say that Obama basically said that Republicans represent every bad thing that is wrong in the country today.)

    Why so early in the year? Why so strident?

    Is he frustrated and angry and doesn't care who knows it? Is he running scared and figures that the best defense is a good offense? Does he figure that once the campaign is over, those people whose votes he will need to pass any legislation will forgive and forget? Does he figure that, once the campaign is over, he'll be able to bypass Congress completely with recess appointments and executive orders not subject to Congressional review? Is he so singularly focused only on the election that thoughts of what might follow don't even enter his mind?

    While I'm no fan of Obama, this speech seemed to me uncharacteristic of his tendencies to date, something seems to have changed, and I have no clue what might be going on with him, and I would like to hear other people's viewpoints, perhaps they notice things that I'm missing?




    PS I also thought his attempt to influence the press so blatantly was pretty creepy.....in the question and answer that followed the speech (not in the transcript linked above), here is one report of what he said, where he is quoted is in quotation marks in the excerpt below:
    In the Q-and-A he offered criticism that "bears on your reporting": "I think that there is oftentimes the impulse to suggest that if the two parties are disagreeing, then they're equally at fault and the truth lies somewhere in the middle." An "equivalence is presented" that is unfortunate. It "reinforces . . . cynicism." But the current debate is not "one of those situations where there's an equivalence." Journalists are failing to "put the current debate in some historical context."
    in other words, he seems to be saying to the Associated Press reporters, "if you cover the campaign by trying to appear to be 'even-handed' you actually are doing the nation a disservice because I'm right and they are wrong."
    Last edited by FreshFish; 04-06-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Given that the Reps have ran on "Obama is the worst person ever" for the last few years, why exactly would it be shocking that he's firing back in a campaign speech? It's not really early anymore either. It's April. He should be spinning up his ground game over the next 2-3 months to overwhelm Romney like he did McCain.

    Following the election, those Republicans aren't voting for anything with his name on it anyway, which he's *finally* learning about two years too late. So it really doesn't matter if they're offended by his words, since most seem to be offended by his existence.
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    Given that the Reps have ran on "Obama is the worst person ever" for the last few years, why exactly would it be shocking that he's firing back in a campaign speech? It's not really early anymore either. It's April. He should be spinning up his ground game over the next 2-3 months to overwhelm Romney like he did McCain.

    Following the election, those Republicans aren't voting for anything with his name on it anyway, which he's *finally* learning about two years too late. So it really doesn't matter if they're offended by his words, since most seem to be offended by his existence.
    This. I find FreshFish confusion on the matter confusing.
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    how does AZ2 make any sense geographcally? You've got a big piece of AZ2 inside AZ1 and only connected to the rest of AZ2 by a canyon.
    That certainly is a bit odd looking. But it looks like that bubble coming east basically just captures the Hopi Reservation. Given the long history of acrimony between the Hopis and Navajo (whose reservation surrounds the Hopis), I'd guess it was an effort to not have the Hopi vote swamped by the larger Navajo vote around them. Just a guess.

    The new maps don't have that bubble though. You can see them here:
    http://azredistricting.org/Maps/Final-Maps/default.asp

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    Given that the Reps have ran on "Obama is the worst person ever" for the last few years, why exactly would it be shocking that he's firing back in a campaign speech? It's not really early anymore either. It's April. He should be spinning up his ground game over the next 2-3 months to overwhelm Romney like he did McCain.

    Following the election, those Republicans aren't voting for anything with his name on it anyway, which he's *finally* learning about two years too late. So it really doesn't matter if they're offended by his words, since most seem to be offended by his existence.
    Ever since Obama got in office, his contempt for those who don't see things like he does has never been far under the surface, and comes out every now and then. No surprise to me he's continuing to attack his opponents. The campaign never really totally stops anymore. It just gets worse at times when an election comes closer.

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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Pretty much. I might keep my TV off outside of college and pro football this fall. It's going to be uglier than usual, and that's not counting the Super-PAC's doing whatever they want since they're "officially" forbidden from even communicating with the campaigns, meaning they'll go way over the line, and whichever candidate will be "Well, we're not allowed to tell them what to do."

    Swiftboats en masse and 20x worse.
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  18. #98

    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    I'm curious as to how others react to Obama's speech at the Associated Press luncheon this past Tuesday...it seemed a real odd tone to adopt so early in the year. Clearly it was a campaign speech, one also that burns bridges before they are even built. (to oversimplify, I think it is fair to say that Obama basically said that Republicans represent every bad thing that is wrong in the country today.)
    I had the opposite reaction -- he's getting out in front of the Fall debate early to frame it. I thought it was a great campaign speech and the equivalent of a rally to the troops during a primary. And in contrast to the kind of hatred dished out in the GOP debates, it was quite mild.

    Obama tried to build bridges for the first two years of his administration and the GOP not only didn't deal in good faith but used his attempts to negotiate with them to undercut him and push their own agenda. He wised up last winter and has been cleaning their clock ever since. It's very similar to what happened with Clinton.

    He's daring them to own Ryan and they're falling into the trap. If the Dems can use this to set up a broad campaign to unseat a lot of Republicans and deliver a Congress that can get things done in contrast to the current bunch of suicide bombers, so much the better for the country.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-06-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Ever since Obama got in office, his contempt for those who don't see things like he does has never been far under the surface
    I guess your theory is if you repeat something enough times maybe you'll convince somebody.

    Obama seems about as disdainful as every other president during my lifetime.* The fact that the right gets their panties in a twist every time he speaks says everything about them, not about him.

    (* except Carter, who always seemed to be bending over backwards to accommodate and understand. Which was wonderful for a Sunday school teacher but terrible for a president. And Ford, who always looked pretty embarrassed to be there.)
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    Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    Following the election, those Republicans aren't voting for anything with his name on it anyway, which he's *finally* learning about two years too late. So it really doesn't matter if they're offended by his words, since most seem to be offended by his existence.
    Starting about the time Newt became Speaker, the GOP's narrative has been that they are shocked!, appalled!, troubled! and offended! by anything with a "D" after it. Their criticisms are completely independent of content; they've been running an endless smear campaign for 18 straight years. They went into Search And Destroy mode so long ago that an entire generation of dittoheads has grown up without any concept of national good, just partisan elbowing.

    The Republicans have become a Troll Party. Aside from the pursuit of power for its own sake, they've had no reason to exist for decades. They're going to be screwed if conservatives ever figure it out.

    On the other hand, it took liberals 25 years to learn the same lesson about the Democratic Party and take it back from the hacks. So the right isn't due to start growing up until around 2019.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-06-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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