Attendance & Women's Hockey

[binnyrus]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Such as? Some people have different tastes in hockey, they like the open space or the creative ways of getting around no checking, ect. but relatively niche personal preference aside, what do you think gives a D1 women's team a reason to get me in the seat instead of the D1 men?

I'd say that no one on this page is asking anyone to go "instead of". People have their preferences . . . Here at UMD it's very rare for the women and men to be in direct competition - they rarely play at home the same weekend. I don't think of the women's game as "getting around no checking" . . . I just don't think of it that way. It's more about winning the game within the given rules. As simple as that. I don't really compare games played by a different set of rules.

I think there's a much deeper reason that people don't attend most women's sporting events. There's a whole cultural aspect. One that our society seems not (yet) ready to face and it is: Girls should cheer for boys . . . and boys should cheer for boys. Rarely (unless you're a good friend or family member) is it "okay" for anyone to cheer for girls en masse. The only common change to this group behavior is the Olympics. I don't know why it is . . . maybe the puritanical roots of our society . . . but right now it would seem that no matter how good a woman's sport is - not matter how fast or physical, no matter how great the level of competition there's just some taboo about going all out in support of "the girls".

[giwan]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Such as? Some people have different tastes in hockey, they like the open space or the creative ways of getting around no checking, ect. but relatively niche personal preference aside, what do you think gives a D1 women's team a reason to get me in the seat instead of the D1 men?

You prove my previous point in that you are exactly not the type to market the women's game too. There is always a group that will want to watch something because they believe it to be a superior product and that is their preference/choice. Honestly the only way I would market to a group like that would be add a couple of bucks to the men's ticket and include the women's ticket. This of course assuming the women's game is not played concurrently.

I believe there are many others to market the game to locally for increasing attendance, just need to be more creative.

Take some cues from women's bouncy ball there are lessons to learn there.

[Hux]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

I think there's a much deeper reason that people don't attend most women's sporting events. There's a whole cultural aspect. One that our society seems not (yet) ready to face and it is: Girls should cheer for boys . . . and boys should cheer for boys. Rarely (unless you're a good friend or family member) is it "okay" for anyone to cheer for girls en masse. The only common change to this group behavior is the Olympics. I don't know why it is . . . maybe the puritanical roots of our society . . . but right now it would seem that no matter how good a woman's sport is - not matter how fast or physical, no matter how great the level of competition there's just some taboo about going all out in support of "the girls".

Jeez, I hope not. I know when I was at UMass (30 years ago) the women's lacrosse games were very well attended. In fact, on Wednesday afternoons in the spring it was a given that you went to watch lacrosse, and grill on the side of the hill next to the field.

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

If this high school has for example (junior and thereabouts players on it) I can see them giving the women's team a problem. Where I come from, there are rules in place where high school players can only play for their high school up to AAA hockey representative. When I played, you couldn't play high school if you played rep (that was silly and was eventually changed obviously.) Look at the players on this team and where they play their hockey outside of school; then if you tell me they only play high school hockey, we'll have a problem. Either that or I don't understand your system. This national team would not have a chance against descent D3 or D1 teams, and yup, the best women in the world would get destroyed by a D1 men's team. The women can compete with Midget AAA teams (with limited contact) which are generally weaker than better minor midget AAA teams (15 years old in their draft year.) This is the reality.

[binnyrus]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

If this high school has for example (junior and thereabouts players on it) I can see them giving the women's team a problem. Where I come from, there are rules in place where high school players can only play for their high school up to AAA hockey representative. When I played, you couldn't play high school if you played rep (that was silly and was eventually changed obviously.) Look at the players on this team and where they play their hockey outside of school; then if you tell me they only play high school hockey, we'll have a problem. Either that or I don't understand your system. This national team would not have a chance against descent D3 or D1 teams, and yup, the best women in the world would get destroyed by a D1 men's team. The women can compete with Midget AAA teams (with limited contact) which are generally weaker than better minor midget AAA teams (15 years old in their draft year.) This is the reality.

Again, comparing. Apples and oranges. Doesn't seem worth the effort . . . and I think, not the point. So what, people can only be enthusiastic and supportive of the men's game?? What this comparison boils down to is this: women's sports can't be viable. I say BS to that.

[giwan]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Jeez, I hope not. I know when I was at UMass (30 years ago) the women's lacrosse games were very well attended. In fact, on Wednesday afternoons in the spring it was a given that you went to watch lacrosse, and grill on the side of the hill next to the field.

Could it really be, spring, nice outside, grill, beer and oh yeah a lacrosse match?

I happen to agree about the cultural aspect, and I may get flamed but women do not support other women in sports en-mass. Small close groups will but not as a norm. Women are more then 50% of the population.

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Just going to focus on a couple of your comments this time...

Such as? Some people have different tastes in hockey, they like the open space or the creative ways of getting around no checking, ect. but relatively niche personal preference aside, what do you think gives a D1 women's team a reason to get me in the seat instead of the D1 men?

There are many reasons, some of which you mention elsewhere and reject. But my first try at a list:

Where growth is possible, take an active role and help hockey grow.
Hockey is the world's greatest sport. Everyone, male or female, should have the opportunity to play and watch. Be part of the effort.

A High Percentage of Women's D-1 Players Stay for 4 Years.
Women's Hockey players are real student athletes. Very few are "one and done." For the regular attendee, it's much more satisfying to follow a player's career for 4 years as opposed to 1. Lots of Men's players fit this description too, of course. All I'm really saying is that if you believe that playing for the university is an important goal in and of itself, the Women's teams deserve our support. These players aren't just "passing through" on their way to a higher level. Being a Buckeye or a Tiger truly matters to them.

Better Instructional Models
For a recreational hockey player trying to pick up hockey pointers, Women's D-1 may well be a better choice than the Men. In many cases, the Men are simply elite athletes, and they're doing things at a speed the average athlete simply isn't capable of. But watching a well coached Women's team play may mean picking up some things us mere mortals might actually use on the ice.

More Flow
Due to the lack of checking, the Women's game sometimes has more flow than the Men's game. Yeah, it's a complicated question, and I don't mean to denigrate effective defense -- regardless of gender. But this is far more than a question of "open space." A series of crisp passes resulting in a great scoring chance is a thing of beauty. Defense first hockey is becoming more prevalent in the Men's game, making it a little less watchable. Conversely, for those who like playmaking, the Women's game may be becoming a little more attractive. This is also a reason why the NHL playoffs are better than the Regular Season. The worst of the defense-only teams are gone from the field.

Great Seats
Outstanding vantage points, obtainable for free or priced very inexpensively.

Get In On The Ground Level
It's OK to follow the herd some of the time, but being a contrarian also has its advantages. Want to follow the most popular team in town? No worries, join the bandwagon. But I truly believe that supporting a rising program through thick and thin is a rewarding experience. If you have the time to support one team in each category, so much the better. As others have noted, this needn't be an either-or choice.

I could go on. But I'm guessing that if you're not on board by now, you won't be.

True that I don't know this particular school, but I am extremely doubtful that they would compete seriously against a D3 or D1 men's hockey program. So the integrity of my point remains intact. The best women's team in the world is still, at best, at men's D1 level, and I think that is being wayyyyyy generous. A level at which 90% of players will not make it even to the ECHL.

Integrity isn't at issue. The challenge has been getting us on the same page on this specific item. So far we've been two ships passing in the night. I'll give it one more shot.

How a Minnesota Boys HS team would do against a Men's College Team is pretty much irrelevant to me. But not wanting to dodge the question, I'll say this: The top HS teams could probably have a respectable scrimmage against a D-3 team. Similarly, in other sports, sometimes Junior Colleges have scrimmages against D-3 schools and hold their own. Usually, experience and maturity would be the deciding factor. If score were kept, it probably wouldn't be close. But they wouldn't be embarassing mismatches. High School Champs against a D-1 team? Granted, that's an embarrassing mismatch. But again, it's also beside the point -- at least the point I'm trying to make. I raised the Roseau/Team USA example to try to convey to you the approximate level the Elite Women are playing at. That's important because there certainly are hockey games that are for close friends and family only. I really can't imagine going to random House League PeeWee games, knowing no one involved. My point is that Elite Women's Hockey is well above the minimum bar to be watchable by a fan. There are many levels of play that meet that minimum standard. The precise rank order of the watchable leagues is of little importance to me, but apparently of enormous importance to you.

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Again, comparing. Apples and oranges. Doesn't seem worth the effort . . . and I think, not the point. So what, people can only be enthusiastic and supportive of the men's game?? What this comparison boils down to is this: women's sports can't be viable. I say BS to that.

Binny...I never really said that women's sports can't be viable. I would hope it could-- but how? I was only making a comparison to what was formerly said. Better hockey, or for that matter, any sport will always trump a weaker one. I love women's hockey, and very much enjoy watching it for what it is. I have kid's that play on both sides fortunately, and understand the challenges. As I said before on this thread, it is important that men get behind women's hockey in general. We came close last year, but if you know what I mean, it didn't happen.

[dave1381]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

I'm calling out RIT's bogus claim that we can infer from current attendance numbers how many people share his opinions about the quality of the men's game versus the quality of the women's game.

People attend games for lots of reasons other than the quality of play. Teams build fan bases over time. When men's hockey has a history that dates back before Title IX, and men's college sports were a top attraction before women even had the right the vote, then of course women's sports and women's college hockey are going to be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to attracting fans. The differences in attendance result from a lot more than differences in the overall quality of play.

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

I'm calling out RIT's bogus claim that we can infer from current attendance numbers how many people share his opinions about the quality of the men's game versus the quality of the women's game.

People attend games for lots of reasons other than the quality of play. Teams build fan bases over time. When men's hockey has a history that dates back before Title IX, and men's college sports were a top attraction before women even had the right the vote, then of course women's sports and women's college hockey are going to be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to attracting fans. The differences in attendance result from a lot more than differences in the overall quality of play.

Ok then big guy or girl....then what.

[CTR]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

As a Badger fan, I'll throw in my two cent's worth. Wisconsin promotes the women's game with birthday parties in the concourses and other special events (i.e. the annual "Fill the Bowl" game, which includes a food drive), but it also does this for the women's basketball team. I think a lot depends on how strong hockey is at the lower levels; I love seeing young girls come out to the game and being in awe of the women's players. UW benefits from having a good team and a Madison hero (Mark Johnson) as coach.

A couple other miscellaneous thoughts:

1) Anyone who saw Minnesota v. Wisconsin last week saw women's hockey at its peak. I maintain that the speed in that game was equal to the median or lower men's game. The WCHA is just that much better than the eastern teams.

2) Goldy is a pain in the butt at games. He was wandering around the arena, DURING THE GAME, getting in the way of those trying to see the game. If your mascot doesn't respect the game, why should anyone else.

3) Optimistically, I think attendance will build over time, but was very disappointed in the attendance at Duluth. Parents of the players are almost embarrassingly grateful when a non-relative comes to watch the women play.

4) I saw some good hockey last weekend.

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

As a Badger fan, I'll throw in my two cent's worth. Wisconsin promotes the women's game with birthday parties in the concourses and other special events (i.e. the annual "Fill the Bowl" game, which includes a food drive), but it also does this for the women's basketball team. I think a lot depends on how strong hockey is at the lower levels; I love seeing young girls come out to the game and being in awe of the women's players. UW benefits from having a good team and a Madison hero (Mark Johnson) as coach.

A couple other miscellaneous thoughts:

1) Anyone who saw Minnesota v. Wisconsin last week saw women's hockey at its peak. I maintain that the speed in that game was equal to the median or lower men's game. The WCHA is just that much better than the eastern teams.

2) Goldy is a pain in the butt at games. He was wandering around the arena, DURING THE GAME, getting in the way of those trying to see the game. If your mascot doesn't respect the game, why should anyone else.

3) Optimistically, I think attendance will build over time, but was very disappointed in the attendance at Duluth. Parents of the players are almost embarrassingly grateful when a non-relative comes to watch the women play.

4) I saw some good hockey last weekend.

Well...

[dave1381]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Ok then big guy or girl....then what.

Well, mainly we call out journalists and others who denigrate the sport simply because of the attendance gaps, and hope the culture slowly corrects itself.

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Well, mainly we call out journalists and others who denigrate the sport simply because of the attendance gaps, and hope the culture slowly corrects itself.

Good call. The sport needs a better identity at the highest level first, then there may be a trickle down effect. Attendance is the whole idea. Parity might be a good idea too. The Olympic committee prefers it.

[dave1381]

Re: Attendance & Women's Hockey

Good call. The sport needs a better identity at the highest level first, then there may be a trickle down effect. Attendance is the whole idea. Parity might be a good idea too. The Olympic committee prefers it.

On that note, I'm glad that Angela Ruggiero seems to be taking a prominent role in the IOC.