Rose colored glasses.

[Black Bear]

While this thread has similar content to the BC thread, I have decided to leave it open, because I believe that the general discussion here can be valuable.

All speculation regarding the conduct of the named individuals in the BC situation, should be left to BC thread. Any such posts will be deleted, and repeat violators will be banned.


Having read many of the posts regarding the incident(s) at BC, I thought that I'd react to that situation on another thread rather than keep that one going. While what has occurred is certainly surprising in terms of the stature of the school involved, looking at the world today I have to ask, is anyone REALLY surprised that it happened in women's collegiate hockey? That this is the only incident of it's kind to happen? Or, might it be that this is the first high profile incident that has been reported? What segment of society hasn't it happened in today? Schools, clubs, athletics, workplaces, churches..........on and on. While I have no sympathy for the BC coach involved, I find this whole sense of "instant" knowledge, "instant" judgement, based upon assumptions or taking other poster's assertions to be true, today to be somewhat disconcerting. People who in all likelihood couldn't even find BC with a federal search warrant posting as if they were a fly on the wall during everything that has, allegedly, occurred. People's lives bisected, trisected and disected instantly. Maybe it is totally deserved but let's remember another collegiate incident in the very recent past, the Duke lacrosse fiasco.

Having had two children involved in the hockey world now for almost eleven years, our path through that world forced me to take off my "rose colored glasses" a long time ago. Maybe if I mention a few things that we've seen along the way, it might serve to motivate people to put away their "rose colored glasses" regarding the hockey world and motivate some to look at things with a healthy dose of skepticism. Before I do so, just let me say that I have no regrets regarding our trip of the last eleven years and even with all of the incidents that I refer to as, The Dark Side, it's been an overwhelmingly positive experience for our whole family.

How about a season when the head coach was arrested for felony embezzlement in the middle of the year? Where his replacement was nearly arrested for choking a player on the bench during a game? These events occured at a top shelf program, one whose name everyone on this forum would recognize, but they forced my son to turn in his jerseys prior to the end of the season and move to another organization. Was the grass greener? Hardly. The next organization dealt us a coach who was suspended by USA Hockey for a year for playing a player, who had been issued a ten game suspension for punching a referee, in the jerseys of an injured player to avoid the suspension. The player who had been suspended was also the player who was choked on the bench in the previous organization and the referee that he punched was in the process of throwing the player's father out of the rink, drunk again. The jersey's that the player wore were my son's, totally without our knowledge, who had been hit from behind and suffered a broken collarbone on his first shift of the season. I am the one who notified USA Hockey of the incident and we were vilified by the organization and parents involved for speaking up. My son wound up playing house hockey that season after his injury had healed.

Try Googling "David Frost agent" and be introduced to one of the lowest lifeforms to ever exist in the hockey world. While we never met him in person, questioning a Canadian Junior team, through the league commissioner, which had signed my son to play, regarding Mr. Frost's appearance on the bench at end of the prior season led to my son being sent packing. A friend who coachs at the collegiate level had warned us to make sure that Frost would have no involvement with the team. Unfortunately, what we didn't know was that the team owner, at the time an NHLer, still was tight with Frost as he had played for him in his younger years and used him as an agent when he went to the NHL. Evidently he was a little upset at our questioning and pulled the plug on my son.

And, the scariest scene of all occurred in the lobby of a rink where my son was playing. I was talking to a former coach of my son and while doing so we overheard a conversation between a coach and a player in the organization. This coach was at the time being highly touted, having moved to the area from Canada, and was to be the coach of the organization's high profile bantam team. As we listened to this coach trying to persuade the player to accompany him to Toronto to see the Leafs play, the hair stood up on the back of our necks. Something was clearly wrong here and we went to the rink manager's office and asked what they really knew about this guy. To make a long story short, the scum is now doing hard time in a Canadian prison and if not there, he would have been in a US prison.

Unfortunately, I could probably put a few more lowlights up if I thought about it some more but I won't. My point is that we for the most part on this forum absolutely love hockey. My advice is to not let that love be blind when your kids are involved. It's tough to find the line where you are not a "helicopter" parent, always hovering, and still allow your child to grow on their own. At the same time, I choose to maybe "hover" a little more than I wish I had to. Certainly more than my parents had to "hover" over me but, IMO, it's unfortunately the reality of the world today.

[WOODY THE WOODPECKER]

your history with hockey and sad state of affairs at BC is a mirror image of our society today. none of this should surprise anybody as one can see it coming. but when the "dirty bomb" does hit it hurts as it is too close to home.

BC hockey will through this and get their program back on track. they have too many dedicated and good people there. the players will learn from this and they too will grow from all of this.

i just hope that the media doesn't keep turning over the embers as they start to fade. they, the media has a way of fanning the flames to keep stories like this going.

[finalapprch]

Or maybe it just might be good to get all the little dirty secrets out of the closet? I wonder how many times things have been buried "for the good of the game" when in reality a good house cleaning was in order. I'm not saying you are wrong Woody but I also wonder if a different approach might be in order.

[what up]

your history with hockey and sad state of affairs at BC is a mirror image of our society today. none of this should surprise anybody as one can see it coming. but when the "dirty bomb" does hit it hurts as it is too close to home.

BC hockey will through this and get their program back on track. they have too many dedicated and good people there. the players will learn from this and they too will grow from all of this.

i just hope that the media doesn't keep turning over the embers as they start to fade. they, the media has a way of fanning the flames to keep stories like this going.

I guess my question is How do you let it heal? Just saying forget about it? I also want to move on for all the right reasons. I agree many people have learned from this and will grow. I think the media should be careful how they report. Journalism is having it's own problems. If we can still call it journalism anymore.

The cut needs to be cleaned or infection will continue. How do we as a hockey community agree and enforce our sport so it can continue to grow within the present reputation that already exists? Maybe nothing happened.

I think we can make changes and expect people to follow the guidelines and rules for the better of everyone involved. Of course there will be violations, problems, and power will control as it usually does.

I see all of our contributions to this discussion as a positive part of hockey today and am sure we would all like to move as a stronger wiser sport of hockey and stronger and wiser players, coaches, schools and teams.

OK, I guess my glasses are rose colored but hopefully someone that can make positive change is listening and I think we all can be aware and make changes in small ways that equip and help younger kids to avoid these situations before, during and after college.

[gotice]

I think knowledge is a double edged sword. Black Bear you stated in the end of your post (a very good one, by the way) that you have to "hover" more than your parents did.

I think most of us "Hover" more than our parents, because we are more aware. We come by this awareness because of the instant fashion that news is available. I don't think there is any more, per capita, acts of abuse (sexual or other) in our children's lifes, then there was in ours. ( Other than mass acts of violence like seen at VT and other schools) I just think there is more information available to us as parents to be more aware of these acts.

So is reading everything about the situation at BC harmful or helpful? It does, for the moment, make us all more aware of a variety of situations that can transpire between our children(or young adult) and an adult in a position of power. The discussion on line gives us, as parents, another opportunity to discuss acceptable and unacceptable behavior with our children.

Since we do not know for fact all of the information surrounding the BC incident other than a text message was sent from a student to a coach of the sexual nature. With this brief information we can learn several things whether we believe that the player is at fault, the coach, or both;

1. If you are a person in charge and you receive advances from a subordinate, you should report the advances immediatly to someone above you or at least a colleague. You should discuss with the subordinate in the precense of another colleague that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. (Never have a one to one meeting, words can be twisted and used against the "victim")

2. If you are a subordinate(player) and you receive advances from your boss(coach) tell someone immeadiately. You should request a meeting with the boss(coach), colleague(asst. coach), and their boss( AD) together to discuss the advances. (Never have a one to one meeting, words can be twisted and used against the "victim")

3. Keep all documentation to support your claim in the event that you experience reprocussions for your actions to stop the advances.

4. Relationships other than professional, between Bosses(coaches) and subordinates(players) should be off limits as long as both parties are in a professional business(team) together

A relationship between coach and player can be friendy, but a clear line must be set and under no circumstances should that line be crossed by either party.

5. Obviously, relationships should always be off limits between a minor and an adult regardless of who initiates it.

These are the lessons that I feel we can take from this situation and these are lessons that can be taught to our children.

By discussing this situation and others like them, we are able to use tangible examples to relate to our children so that hopefully they can learn from other's mistakes.

We always think that these things could never happen to us and ours, but this event can show us that these situations can and do happen to normal, everyday people, just like us.

[kustomice]

Try Googling "David Frost agent" .....

Or better yet try Sheldon Kennedy... follow the link to his page and then to http://www.respectinsport.com/

Not only testimonies of what has happened in the past but a project working to reduce its occurance in the future.

CBC video article on the program (http://www.respectinsport.com/IntheMedia.html)

[Trillium]

Or maybe it just might be good to get all the little dirty secrets out of the closet? I wonder how many times things have been buried "for the good of the game" when in reality a good house cleaning was in order.

Black Bear thank you for sharing your awful experiences, and even more importantly for having hard the courage to speak up to get rid of those who don't belong in the game. Interesting that you should have been peripherally involved in a situation with the infamous David Frost.

Living in the Toronto Area, I remember when the young proteges of Frost were coming up through minor and junior hockey, and hearing about various issues. The Danton/Frost murder for hire case has become one of the most highly publicized scandals in hockey. Frost is still enmeshed in court cases involving Danton and other former players 16 years after his first involvement with them. One of the things I find most stunning is that none of his former players is willing to speak up about any of it to this day. Frost was able to get away with ruining the lives of a number of youth, as well as ruining family relationships because he remained protected by a code of silence. Having friends in high places in hockey who were/are also willing to stay silent ensured far more victims, and greater levels of disturbance among previous victims. Many people admit that they saw things that were not right, but no one was willing to take action to protect kids.

Is this the price people are willing to pay for the chance to win, or get to the next level? Scary.

I cannot fathom how people can say that covering up or dismissing inappropriate behaviour could remotely be good for the game. It is an cancer that must be excised, and the code of silence must be broken. Past history has shown it only ultimately made things worse.

[pal7]

Danton and others were victims of Frost's ...he is a psycological pirhana..and his victims are too embarassed to testify. The scars he left on those kids will be with them FOREVER!!!! They are men now, but they were kids then.

Our society has more than one standard for these types of issues.
Look at the female teachers that have been in the news regarding male
students...handled totally different than the accused male trespasser, like Duke.

And what about the female with female...? Head female coaches have come under fire for this infraction and just move on to another coaching job.

Shouldn't we hold all genders accountable not matter how they are matched up? But then the issue of gender preference comes into play. We can't react to a same sex issue with out hearing the words.."homophobic"...

Gender be *amed...these people are predators pure and simple and use their positions of guardianship inappropriatly.

I have no information on the BC situation, but if he is guilty, then his life is ruined forever as well...no coaching job anywhere, and who can change their careers at this stage of his life? And the player involved, is she totally innocent and be allowed to just continue on? We don't know all the facts, so maybe we shouldn't be making judgements on either of these people.
But if nothing else this venue has opened a few eyes in regards to any sport and any coach in any situation.

[WOODY THE WOODPECKER]

one must hurry in order to get their post in before the "CENSORSHIP" committee comes through and locks everything up.

never in my life would i imagine that one would shut off a post/thread because "HE" deems is time to turn the lights out.

censorship is alive and well in Boston. but then come to think of it wasn't the right to "FREE" speech written in Philly?

[TonyTheTiger20]

one must hurry in order to get their post in before the "CENSORSHIP" committee comes through and locks everything up.

never in my life would i imagine that one would shut off a post/thread because "HE" deems is time to turn the lights out.

censorship is alive and well in Boston. but then come to think of it wasn't the right to "FREE" speech written in Philly?

you are a dolt, and as such, should be banned from this board.

im done spelling it out for you.

[TonyTheTiger20]

We don't know all the facts, so maybe we shouldn't be making judgements on either of these people.

correct.

[WOODY THE WOODPECKER]

you are a dolt, and as such, should be banned from this board.

im done spelling it out for you.

you Sir are nothing more than an underclassman who has yet to learn nor value the right to free speech.

once you are removed from your shield known as "COLLEGE" and you join the real world then and maybe then you will value everybody's opinion even if he/she does not agree with you. for some this trait takes a lifetime.

i am confident that you will succeed and will learn much more than mathmatics . but i do believe that it was Einstein who once said that "imagination is more important than knowledge". and it is a proven fact that one's imagination can only be reached in a "FREE" society.

[Hux]

one must hurry in order to get their post in before the "CENSORSHIP" committee comes through and locks everything up.

never in my life would i imagine that one would shut off a post/thread because "HE" deems is time to turn the lights out.

censorship is alive and well in Boston. but then come to think of it wasn't the right to "FREE" speech written in Philly?


See the guidlines thread.

[David De Remer]

one must hurry in order to get their post in before the "CENSORSHIP" committee comes through and locks everything up.
No one has censored anything yet. As of tonight, I have yet to receive any requests to post anything on that thread. Regardless, USCHO reserves the right to moderate based on content.
never in my life would i imagine that one would shut off a post/thread because "HE" deems is time to turn the lights out.
The lights were on for a whole week, everyone had their say, and if anyone has more to say, they can email me.
censorship is alive and well in Boston. but then come to think of it wasn't the right to "FREE" speech written in Philly?
Denying anyone free access to post on the BC thread has not limited anyone's free speech. You still have the right to speculate as much you want about the BC elsewhere without fear of criminal prosecution.

This is the first time I've ever closed out a thread on this board. I don't make such a decision lightly.

[TonyTheTiger20]

See the guidlines thread.

im afraid im rather guilty as well...

you are a dolt, and as such, should be banned from this board.

i apoligize. anyway,

you Sir are nothing more than an underclassman who has yet to learn nor value the right to free speech.

once you are removed from your shield known as "COLLEGE" and you join the real world then and maybe then you will value everybody's opinion even if he/she does not agree with you. for some this trait takes a lifetime.

i am confident that you will succeed and will learn much more than mathmatics . but i do believe that it was Einstein who once said that "imagination is more important than knowledge". and it is a proven fact that one's imagination can only be reached in a "FREE" society.

WOODY, i know alot more about free speach than you give me credit for. people are allowed free speach, but only to a point. Libel and slander are NOT legal. when it gets to the point where people are speculating, most likely incorrectly, about what someone may or may not have done, then the potential for libel and slander exist. at that point, you arent covered by 'free speach'.

i value other people's opinions as much as anyone else. things moved from 'opinions' to a guessing game about the lives of two people, both of which you know virtually nothing about.

savvy?

[David De Remer]

I've added the following to the top of the thread.
While this thread has similar content to the BC thread, I have decided to leave it open, because I believe that the general discussion here can be valuable.

All speculation regarding the conduct of the named individuals in the BC situation, should be left to BC thread. Any such posts will be deleted, and repeat violators will be banned.

[Hux]

While this thread has similar content to the BC thread, I have decided to leave it open, because I believe that the general discussion here can be valuable.

All discussion regarding the specifics of the BC situation, however, should be left to BC thread. Any such posts will be deleted, and repeat violators will be banned.

This reads like some tax law. "The discussion should be left to the BC thread", which is now closed. And such posts will be deleted......

So are you saying it can't be discussed, since the BC thread is now closed, and hence the issue? Or are you saying discuss it somewhere else? :confused:

[WOODY THE WOODPECKER]

"No one has censored anything yet. As of tonight, I have yet to receive any requests to post anything on that thread. Regardless, USCHO reserves the right to moderate based on content".

at times i think i am on the Mass Pike. now i have to go through the "control tower" if i want to voice my opinion? is this what they teach at the Boston schools?

i wil give the benefit of the doubt to you and i will go back and read all the posts. i do not remember anything being said that was damaging to those involved. yes, i will admit that the whole situation stinks but a lot of people have voiced some pretty solid viewpoints.

our country is based on freedom and free speech and i hate to see ones thoughts and viewpoints to be cut short.

thank GOD those involved down at Duke University had the right to free speech on their side. just imagine if we had to get one's permission to read a book or watch a movie.

now do the right thing and open the thread up. you know this is the right thing to do. EVERY day that you resist you will be inviting negative energy to control your life.

don't operate from the darkside, you are better than that.

[David De Remer]

This reads like some tax law. "The discussion should be left to the BC thread", which is now closed. And such posts will be deleted......

I would say the BC thread is still open, it's just that all posts have to go through me now.

[Hux]

"No one has censored anything yet. As of tonight, I have yet to receive any requests to post anything on that thread. Regardless, USCHO reserves the right to moderate based on content".

at times i think i am on the Mass Pike. now i have to go through the "control tower" if i want to voice my opinion? is this what they teach at the Boston schools?

i wil give the benefit of the doubt to you and i will go back and read all the posts. i do not remember anything being said that was damaging to those involved. yes, i will admit that the whole situation stinks but a lot of people have voiced some pretty solid viewpoints.

our country is based on freedom and free speech and i hate to see ones thoughts and viewpoints to be cut short.

thank GOD those involved down at Duke University had the right to free speech on their side. just imagine if we had to get one's permission to read a book or watch a movie.

now do the right thing and open the thread up. you know this is the right thing to do. EVERY day that you resist you will be inviting negative energy to control your life.

don't operate from the darkside, you are better than that.



Woody, I get your point, but how many Sammies have ya tipped back watchin' the games tonight? Negative energy, the dark side? ;)