The Scheduling of the Women's Frozen Four

[dave1381]

Someone raised the question in the SLU thread, complaining about the Frozen Four conflicting with the ECACHL championship.

Well, here's the NCAA legislation where they decided to push it back. I've quoted the justifiction, I mean justification
http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/governance/division_I/champ_cabinet/2004/September_2004/Supp_17_WIH.htm

Currently, the women's ice hockey championship takes place the same weekend as the men's regionals. The committee believes it would be in the best interest of women's ice hockey to move the championship date by one week. In 2004 the committee noticed a significant decline in attendance at the Women's Frozen Four. Although many factors may have contributed to this decline, the committee felt the men's regionals taking place in close proximity to the women's championship may have impacted attendance. Both genders draw from the same fan base, which may create conflicts for fans, particularly when a school's men's and women's teams participate in the tournaments at the same time. Playing the week before the men's regionals would also help to avoid scheduling conflicts for potential hosts that might be interested in both the men's and women's championships. If approved, the women's championship game would take place on a date on which no other collegiate hockey is played. Two years ago, due to how the date formula was applied, the Women's Frozen Four took place the week prior to the men's championship. That year the championship set an attendance record. This proposal was discussed with all conferences sponsoring women's ice hockey

[BCWH Superfan joe]

No matter when you schedule the FF there is going to be some men's event going on at this time of year, unless you move it forward ANOTHER week. And even then, the major conferences have their quarterfinals. I think the way they have it now is fine- Do the women's national tournament, then the men's national tournament, with no overlap between the two.

[dave1381]

While that's true, all weeks are not equal in terms of conflict.

The NCAA quarterfinal weekend is the same weekend as most men's conference quarterfinals. The Frozen Four weekend is the same weekend as most men's conference final fours. In 2004, the year they cite, the Frozen Four conflicted with the men's first round of NCAAs.

Bottom line, more teams play in conference quarterfinals than in conference final fours. More teams play in conference final fours than the NCAA tournament. Pushing back the schedule definitely increased the number of conflicts.

[MNhockeyfan09]

On the flip side I think the NCAA did a great job this year by having both women's Frozen Four locations within an hour of each other.
How awesome is that to be able to see both Championship games, the DIII
on Saturday in Plattsburgh and the DI on Sunday in Lake Placid.

[Hux]

On the flip side I think the NCAA did a great job this year by having both women's Frozen Four locations within an hour of each other.
How awesome is that to be able to see both Championship games, the DIII
on Saturday in Plattsburgh and the DI on Sunday in Lake Placid.

Hey, very good point. A lot of great hockey, reasonably priced, within driving distance. Can't beat that...other than having both at the same venue, which they could have done easily.

[binnyrus]

The record attendance in 2003 had more to do with where it was (Duluth) and the circumstances surrounding the home team - and their major rival - Minnesota both being in the tournament - more than it had to do with any other co-incidental men's games. (Which were also happening in the Twin Cities as I recall - may be wrong on that.)

I can safely vouche for the FACT that many, many Duluthians in attendance had never attended a women's game before - or since. The uniqueness of a National hockey event taking place in an area where hockey is King, combined with the home team contending made for an event that local folks wanted to check out.

It set the bar too high - a "false positive" if you will.

[Cozmo Timothy]

Hey, very good point. A lot of great hockey, reasonably priced, within driving distance. Can't beat that...other than having both at the same venue, which they could have done easily.

Instead of combining the the Women's DI and DIII, combine the Men's and Women's DIII at the same time and location, with the location being a predetermined site. Have the women semi's on Thursday, the men's semi's on Friday, and both finals on Saturday (eliminate the consolation games).

DI can stand on it's own, combining DIII tourneys could help with the fiscal responsibility clause that the NCAA holds dear by consolidating expenses and processes. In addition, being at a neutral location would add to the integrity and excitment of the event (as is the case with major college championships).

[ARM]

The record attendance in 2003 had more to do with where it was (Duluth) and the circumstances surrounding the home team - and their major rival - Minnesota both being in the tournament - more than it had to do with any other co-incidental men's games. (Which were also happening in the Twin Cities as I recall - may be wrong on that.)The "threepeat" angle also played an important role in the attention given to Duluth's FF as well, making it a more historic event. Once the Bulldogs didn't win the following year, it seemed that some previously loyal fans drifted away.


It set the bar too high - a "false positive" if you will.I disagree that the bar was set too high -- the problem was that no attempt was made to improve upon it. Over 5,000 for games in Duluth and Madison need not be rare blips on the attendance graph. Somebody has to sell the product. Had an attempt been made at last year's Frozen Four to promote the event with discounts for select groups (group admission packages for youth teams, student discounts), a crowd in the 7 to 8 thousand range would have been a possibility. But the NCAA shows no real creativity -- instead, they impose restrictions that limit what is done to boost attendance during the season.

[sunprairie]

I agree that any weekend this time of year is going to result in conflicts for someone. So, I think it's just a matter of chance for each individual team.

Take Wisconsin as a prime example. The UW-Harvard game, which was probably one of the more exciting Women's hockey games in program history and which drew a huge crowd in comparison to most other UW games, could have played out completely differently if circumstances were different.

Fortunately for the women, the mens' record was subpar this year and they had their quarterfinal in Colorado last weekend and it wasn't televised. Couple that with the Big Ten B-Ball tourney in Chicago keeping the Basketball team away and playing early in the afternoon and the women had the advantage of the perfect storm resulting in their evening game being the only UW sport in town. That drew the big crowd that enjoyed an amazing performance.

But, had situations or timing changed, things would have been completely different. If the men's basketball tourney was a late game, many fans would have stayed home and watched on TV. If the Mens hockey team had been televised some folks probably would have stayed home to watch that.

Or, even worse, if the mens hockey team had a home game, the women's NCAA quarterfinal game would have been a 2 p.m. afternoon game that would have conflicted with mens basketball coverage and would not have had the primetime billing that it received. (Although it would have been interesting to see what they would have done when the game went to 4 OT and the mens game was supposed to have started!)

Or, they could have moved the women's game to the Eagles Nest or Capitol Ice like last year and the game would have only allowed for 1,000 fans to see it in a subpar facility.

So, as you can see, no situation is perfect. The NCAA can only hope for the best in each scenario and plan accordingly.

[binnyrus]

I disagree that the bar was set too high -- the problem was that no attempt was made to improve upon it. Over 5,000 for games in Duluth and Madison need not be rare blips on the attendance graph. Somebody has to sell the product. Had an attempt been made at last year's Frozen Four to promote the event with discounts for select groups (group admission packages for youth teams, student discounts), a crowd in the 7 to 8 thousand range would have been a possibility. But the NCAA shows no real creativity -- instead, they impose restrictions that limit what is done to boost attendance during the season.

But I do think the 2003 was a "false positive" in the sense that it was not a real indicator of overall interest in women's hockey. I doubt that the NCAA did anything more in Duluth than they did in Minneapolis. It was the collusion of events in Duluth that made for a spectacular, sold out event.

And again, I can't tell you how many people went just because it was a NATIONAL championship event. Those opportunities do not present themselves in Duluth. Whereas Minneapolis has all kinds of things like that.

I'm not arguing your bigger point which has to do with marketing the game. I wish more was done as well - and not just for the NCAA tourny. We are lucky up here in Duluth because all the games are on radio - there's decent coverage in the ONE paper and the TV news covers the team as well. (Over on another thread someone said this is "shoving it down our throats!!!). However, I'm still not sure that it has any influence whatsoever on attendance. Or, if it does it is not as significant as one would think it would be. We kind of shrug our shoulders up here on how to garner more interest.

[dave1381]

So, as you can see, no situation is perfect. The NCAA can only hope for the best in each scenario and plan accordingly.
The NCAA can do more than hope for the best -- it can minimize the probability that there are conflicts, and THEN hope for the best. Moving the women's Frozen Four earlier clearly does not minimize the probability of conflicts, because the earlier in the calender you are, the more conflicts you have, since fewer teams have been eliminated, whether it is basketball or men's hockey. For the NCAA to suggest that the men's NCAA hockey tournament is the only source of conflict that they need to schedule around, and move the whole season back a couple weeks to avoid it, is somewhat delusional.

It is an advantage in terms of making certain host sites available, but that's about it.

[Hux]

The NCAA can do more than hope for the best -- it can minimize the probability that there are conflicts, and THEN hope for the best. Moving the women's Frozen Four earlier clearly does not minimize the probability of conflicts, because the earlier in the calender you are, the more conflicts you have, since fewer teams have been eliminated, whether it is basketball or men's hockey. For the NCAA to suggest that the men's NCAA hockey tournament is the only source of conflict that they need to schedule around, and move the whole season back a couple weeks to avoid it, is somewhat delusional.

It is an advantage in terms of making certain host sites available, but that's about it.

True. It really is a no win situation. No matter which way you go, there is likely to be a conflict of one sort or another, especially when dealing with the WCHA schools that have good hoops programs, and men's hockey programs that draw off fans.

Last weekend's men's hockey east quarters at BC saw ridiculously small crowds, with more BC students at the ACC hoop tourney than were in attendence for the hockey game. (Spring break certainly didn't help either) UMass had near capacity crowds as they weren't on break yet. So there are all sorts of things that come into play, and there are only so many things you can control.

What needs to be done is to either have spring break pushed back into mid-April, or have Frozen Fours in spring break locations. Is there a rink on South Padre Island? ;)

[WHKY blogger]

If it were up to me I would start the season a few weeks later, maybe extend it a few weeks, and play the entire NCAA Tournament after the Men's Frozen Four is over!:D :D

I am sure that wouldn't win too many people over, but it seems the last few years that they start games earlier and earlier and are done way to soon for my liking.

For Wisconsin the girls started practice on September 9th I believe and played there first real game on the 29th. Even with some of the kids playing all summer long, and an inter squad scrimmage a week prior to the first game, I question how much is really getting accomplished in 20 days.

Also it may be a little bit of a disadvantage for some of the eastern schools that don't play there first game until almost a month after the we western schools do.

[Skate79]

If it were up to me I would start the season a few weeks later, maybe extend it a few weeks, and play the entire NCAA Tournament after the Men's Frozen Four is over!:D :D

I am sure that wouldn't win too many people over, but it seems the last few years that they start games earlier and earlier and are done way to soon for my liking.

For Wisconsin the girls started practice on September 9th I believe and played there first real game on the 29th. Even with some of the kids playing all summer long, and an inter squad scrimmage a week prior to the first game, I question how much is really getting accomplished in 20 days.

Also it may be a little bit of a disadvantage for some of the eastern schools that don't play there first game until almost a month after the we western schools do.

Very much a disadvantage especially for the Ivies. Harvard's first "real" game was the weekend of October 29th - by then, even SLU and Clarkson had played several games. This puts the Crimson at a distinct disadvantage with a conference foe, not to mention out of conference rivals. It probably explains why Harvard no longer plays the western schools early on choosing instead to wait until after Thanksgiving or December.

I don't think you can come up with a satisfactory resolution for the NCAA women's tournament scheduling problem. If it isn't the men's conference tournament or the NCAA men's basketball tourney, then it will be some other conference tournament game that will conflict with the women. The only way to avoid it would be to put the games on a Sunday afternoon and Monday evening. That way, you avoid most of the men's ice hockey tourney and deal with the men's b-ball. The Monday night championship would give them more exposure but might hurt attendance for those fans who want to travel and see their teams.

[EagleGal]

If it were up to me I would start the season a few weeks later, maybe extend it a few weeks, and play the entire NCAA Tournament after the Men's Frozen Four is over!:D :D

I am sure that wouldn't win too many people over, but it seems the last few years that they start games earlier and earlier and are done way to soon for my liking.

I believe they started it earlier than ever this year so that it wouldn't conflict with the Worlds in late March, early April....If the Frozen Four was at the same time, these schools would be missing the core of their teams while playing for the National Championship! How bizarre would that be?

For Wisconsin the girls started practice on September 9th I believe and played there first real game on the 29th. Even with some of the kids playing all summer long, and an inter squad scrimmage a week prior to the first game, I question how much is really getting accomplished in 20 days.

Also it may be a little bit of a disadvantage for some of the eastern schools that don't play there first game until almost a month after the we western schools do.

Boston College had their first game on September 29th as well, so I don't think there was any advantage to western teams over eastern teams.....All teams just had an advantage over the Ivies, as usual.