Frozen 4, WCHA consolation games?

[greenmtngirl]

Hey, does anyone have any idea when (or if) the consolation games will be played for the WCHA championship on March 12th and the Frozen Four on March 26th? The championship games are listed at 1:07 and 3 pm respectively, but no mention is made of the consolation games on the WCHA, NCAA, or Gopher ticket site that I can find. Surely we're not doing without them this year, are we?

I don't want to make other plans and miss a couple of potentially good games...or find myself all alone waiting for the lights to come on in Ridder and Mariucci...

[ARM]

I was told before the season started that they were not having 3rd place games for either. Personally, I'm glad. While I understand the argument for having them (fans who travel are assured of two games), it has never been fun watching my team play in those games, because they so obviously didn't want to be there.

[greenmtngirl]

Thanks, ARM. I'm kind of surprised—there is the "full-weekend-of-hockey" argument from a fan's perspective, and I guess I assumed the teams would want to play those games, too. But you're right, the consolation has sometimes been a drag to watch, when neither team has a lot of energy for it. I suppose not having consolation games keeps the blood/humiliation to a minimum: you either win or lose, but no one's in the position of losing twice in one weekend the way the Gophers did at the DECC a couple years back.

And that clears up my social calendar, too!

See you Friday...and go Gophers!

[dave1381]

It's particularly silly for one conference to have them when no one else does. In 2001, if the WCHA didn't have one, Minnesota probably would have gotten into the NCAA tournament. Odds are that third-place game is more likely to hurt a bubble team than help it.

[sk8happy]

It's particularly silly for one conference to have them when no one else does. In 2001, if the WCHA didn't have one, Minnesota probably would have gotten into the NCAA tournament. Odds are that third-place game is more likely to hurt a bubble team than help it.

I'll add that for the sport of ice hockey, where games are plenty and the season is almost interminably long compared with other college sports, it seems foolish to me to play consolation games either in league or NCAA tourney's. What athlete really wants to have to suit up the next day to figure out who's 3rd???
In league tourneys, as Dave points out, the double whammy is that the game has NCAA significance and it isn't exactly an easy game to rally for. Hence, the other leagues have one by one nixed it. It's a downer no matter how you look at it and for the team that loses, what a crappy way to finish your season after the thrill of making the Frozen Four. I can't imagine Dartmouth felt too awfully good about the way their year ended in Durham at last years tourney.

[ClOuD 9]

I wonder what this will mean attendence wise for traveling fans. Are fans of a team less likely to travel out for the whole weekend if they are not guaranteed to see their team play again the next day? Unfortunately the women's game isn't as popular as the men's, and doesn't have the same demand for tickets, where it will sell out (or atleast pull a decent draw) regardless. Will fans just wait and see if their team makes it to the final and then travel out to save money? I was planning on going if UNH makes it, but now I am kind of questioning dropping that much money for 4 days in Minnesota, if UNH loses I might as well cut my losses and leave Saturday.

[ARM]

Having made the reverse trip last year, I understand what you are saying. However, had Minnesota lost to Dartmouth 2-7 in last year's semifinal, the existence of a 3rd place game would have done nothing to change my perception of the trip. It was going to have an empty feeling at that point, and a "consolation game" would have been of no consolation.

[dhmn]

The 'Toilet Bowl Game' as I've heard what would be the 3rd/4th place game called, seems like a waste of time. Aside from the Olympics where you have to award a bronze medal, it's pointless.

[sk8happy]

I wonder what this will mean attendence wise for traveling fans. Are fans of a team less likely to travel out for the whole weekend if they are not guaranteed to see their team play again the next day? Unfortunately the women's game isn't as popular as the men's, and doesn't have the same demand for tickets, where it will sell out (or atleast pull a decent draw) regardless. Will fans just wait and see if their team makes it to the final and then travel out to save money? I was planning on going if UNH makes it, but now I am kind of questioning dropping that much money for 4 days in Minnesota, if UNH loses I might as well cut my losses and leave Saturday.

It's a valid point, but I think fans will travel regardless. I realize the risk of not getting to see the Team you've travelled to support, twice and obviously in the BIG game is there, but I still think many fans will go to support the event and their team. Having attended several, there's a lot of things usually surrounding the games and I find it generally entertaining regardless of outcome. And as Arm and other's point out, the Toilet Bowl isn't going to change my desire to stay and see the finals. But that's me... and everyone has to size it up for themselves.

[pgb-ohio]

Are fans of a team less likely to travel out for the whole weekend if they are not guaranteed to see their team play again the next day?

Will fans just wait and see if their team makes it to the final and then travel out to save money?Valid questions. What's even worse is that losing teams themselves may bolt early. Somehow that's not in the spirit of fully participating in the tournament. It promotes a "we're champs or we're losers" mentality, with nothing in between. And that's a shame.

When early departures occur, disappointing situations can result. For example, when the UMD Men made it to the Boston FF in '04, they left after their semi-final defeat. Why hang around? Well, for one thing, a member of their team was a Hobey Baker finalist. 24 hours after the loss, he was accepting the trophy. But his teammates were nowhere to found; they were already on their way back to Duluth.

I do understand the economic side of this. If there's no game, it's hard to justify the cost of the extended stay. But personally, I'd love to see a well played 3rd Place Game, with Bronze Medals awarded to the winning team. That way, all four teams would experience the full tournament.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the previous posts. The players clearly don't want to play for 3rd Place. That trumps my concerns. While dropping the consolation games was regrettable, it was the correct decision.

[Gibber]

Valid questions. What's even worse is that losing teams themselves may bolt early. Somehow that's not in the spirit of fully participating in the tournament. It promotes a "we're champs or we're losers" mentality, with nothing in between. And that's a shame.


It has more to do with the NCAA than the team not wanting to stick around.. the NCAA foots the bill up until the team is done playing.. at least on the men's side.. if you lose in the semi's you're heading back home the next day, has nothing to do with the team not wanting to stick around due to losing.
that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.

[dave1381]

It has more to do with the NCAA than the team not wanting to stick around.. the NCAA foots the bill up until the team is done playing.. at least on the men's side.. if you lose in the semi's you're heading back home the next day, has nothing to do with the team not wanting to stick around due to losing.
that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.
You are exactly right, and this is why UMD left Boston early in 2004. I think it's pretty cheap on the NCAA's part. Hopefully the same won't hold true for the Women's Frozen Four -- the Kazmaier banquet would be pretty lame with only two teams in attendance.

[pgb-ohio]

It has more to do with the NCAA than the team not wanting to stick around.. the NCAA foots the bill up until the team is done playing.. at least on the men's side.. if you lose in the semi's you're heading back home the next day, has nothing to do with the team not wanting to stick around due to losing.
that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.I appreciate the clarification. The question of "exactly who pulled the plug" on the UMD Men actually occurred to me. Not being 100% sure of the answer, I did gloss over this.

But ultimately, I don't think it matters all that much to the real point I'm trying to make. IMHO, if there had been a history of meaningful, well played 3rd Place Games, they'd still be on the schedule and the necessary funding would be there. It was the collective verdict of the D-1 Men that the 3rd Place games were an unwanted nuisance. That culture spread to the D-1 Women. So I'd still contend that the budgetmakers aren't the primary culprits.

As we move forward, I certainly agree that enough funds should be allocated so that all 4 teams can attend the Patty Kaz festivities. For the Women, this is just a matter of maintaining previous levels of spending, since this will be the first FF without the consolation game. Then, after a few trial years, we can get some feedback from the participants as to whether staying over for the banquet was worthwhile.

On the Men's side, I'm not certain that the losing semi-finalists would uniformly want to spend an extra day to participate in the Hobey Ceremony. Obviously the 2004 UMD Men would have liked to. But would the interest be the same without a candidate among the finalists? Probably not.

So should the NCAA routinely foot the bill for the losing semi-finalists to stay, just to cover the particular situation UMD faced in '04? (next time it arises) The answer isn't clear to me.

Again, my belief is that if the players strongly wanted to participate, the necessary funds would be made available. But my suspicion is that many of the players have the attitude that they don't want to be forced to watch someone else celebrate. If that's the case, I can't really fault the NCAA for opting to save a few dollars.