grinders

[bryzerman]

Just wondering when a puck hog becomes a team player.? Is it at the college level..because it seems like all the way up thru 19-U the grinders never get credit..

[ARM]

I think it might depend on who you consider to be a grinder. Is it the blue-collar/lunchpail type who works hard on both ends of the ice, isn't afraid of going into the corners, but isn't likely to ever wind up with double figures in goal-scoring? I heard a MSU-Mankato player say that they had an entire team of grinders. Or can it include someone like a Kelly Stephens, who plays D, including some physical play, can win battles along the wall, but also is one of the faster players on the ice and will add scoring punch? I'd hardly consider her to be a "puck hog" in any case.

Why does some like a Jenny Potter hog the puck? Because she can. While she has control of the puck, the other team isn't going to score, but her team is a constant threat. I think that helps her team as much as the contributions of any other "team player".

[brookyone]

Originally posted by bryzerman
Just wondering when a puck hog becomes a team player.? Is it at the college level..because it seems like all the way up thru 19-U the grinders never get credit..

Speaking only to Minnesota girls high school hockey as the only pre-collegiate hockey I know anything at all about, I'd say any girl possibly referred to as a "puck hog" would likely be a standout / star player on her respective team. A Minnesota high school team is likely to have one, or possibly two players at most who may be head & shoulders above their teammates in skill level. I've witnessed this situation quite often where it's pretty much the team / coaching strategy to keep these exceptional players on the ice for 40 of the 51 minutes played and basically instruct her teammates to get the puck to them. I've seen just one exception to this in the current & recent past edition of the South Saint Paul girls team(s) which seems to be loaded with outstanding players year after year of late. Consequently, some of those teammates are labeled grinders...some undoubtedly are grinder type players but for others it's probably not an accurate assessment, they just don't put up the numbers like the "superstars" for obvious reasons. I agree that the true grinder does not get the appropiate credit...at this level, the offensive powerhouse gets all the attention. To some extent that's true at all levels.

[OhiohockeyDad]

Originally posted by bryzerman
Just wondering when a puck hog becomes a team player.? Is it at the college level..because it seems like all the way up thru 19-U the grinders never get credit..

What credit are you looking for? The goal scorers and playmakers at every level, and in every sport are the ones that win the most attention, and it will always be so. But, the 'grinder' player- the defensive defenseman, the forward that can shut down the other team's best threat, even the 'enforcer' does get lots of credit, from the people that really matter- her team mates, the coaches, the college coaches watching, the knowledgable fans and parents. It doesn't get broadcast on the teams website, or show up on awards, but if you are looking for 'credit'- they get it all the time. Sounds like you are confusing 'grinder' with 2nd or 3rd line player that thinks they should get the 1st line's applause- it's a different thing.

I've witnessed this situation quite often where it's pretty much the team / coaching strategy to keep these exceptional players on the ice for 40 of the 51 minutes played and basically instruct her teammates to get the puck to them.

Just one comment about this- disgusting- I wouldn't call it a 'coaching strategy', this is not much of a coach. How about developing the others up closer to the star's level, so they could all play??

[Coach32]

As a Coach I don't feel the term grinder is a negitive handle. On every team you have players with different skill levels. While a player might be weaker in core skills, they may have more heart than the most skilled player. If the less skilled player wants game time they need to adapt their game to fill the needs of the team. They still work on base skills every day at practice, but in game situations they need to play to their strengths, (backcheck, forecheck, working the corners, ect.) These players are the backbone of most great teams, Coaches do not discount their efforts.

[brookyone]

Originally posted by OhiohockeyDad
Just one comment about this- disgusting- I wouldn't call it a 'coaching strategy', this is not much of a coach. How about developing the others up closer to the star's level, so they could all play??

To clarify my comment, I should not have written "quite often" in reference to my coaching strategy statement. A relative few teams in Minnesota girls high school have the kind of "star" player I'm referring to and on those teams that do, I don't think the result is teammates being short shifted, kept on the bench or denied equal opportunity to develope their skills. Although I have witnessed this, I wouldn't call it widespread by any means. At this level I think the team needs every girl who wants to play. I also agree completely with coach32 in that the girls who aren't necessarily marquee players & take the role of a workhorse are as important as anybody on the team...essential even. I can't say I've ever heard of a high school player actually referred to as a "grinder." It's not a distinction typically given to a high school player.

[ARM]

Originally posted by OhiohockeyDad
Just one comment about this- disgusting- I wouldn't call it a 'coaching strategy', this is not much of a coach. How about developing the others up closer to the star's level, so they could all play??

I think the point of contention here would be at what age/level of hockey should the emphasis switch from development to competition. For example, I think at the NCAA D-I level, the focus is on putting out the lineup that gives the team the best chance to win. If that means that Angela Ruggiero is on the ice for 45 out of 60 minutes, so be it. Nobody bats an eye if Diana Taurasi plays all 40 minutes, so I can't see that hockey is any different.

I think varsity competition in high school is the same way, especially come tournament time. The most extreme case I can think of in high school was Krissy Wendell. I saw her play in the state tourney, she skated a 4-minute-plus shift, rested for 20-30 seconds, then was back on the ice again. She carried a very ordinary team to the state title. I don't think her teammates thought her performance was disgusting, because without her, they would have been turning in their equipment two weeks earlier.

Yes, the coach can develop the players, but most are never going to get close to the level of the star. Some talents and the drive to maximize them, are just attributes with which a person is born. Otherwise, the hardest working player and best player would always be the same person.

[OhiohockeyDad]

and I surely agree that the older they get, the more this is the norm.

And I wasn't refering to the players as disgusting, just that a high school coach would feel the need to do this alll the time ( as brooky already clarified)- I sure understand at tourny time,etc. But I took it to mean that this was wide spread and every game!!

[Collegehockeynut]

Let me take this issue in another direction, Rather than grinders, every team has a player or a couple of players who are the heart and soul of the team. On some teams it may be the “star” player but in many instances it is not. I think this is especially so in the higher levels of hockey, like D1. For example, Minnesota has Darwits and Wendall,,,great players but I would argue that Bills is one of the “heart and soul” players. These players lift the rest of the team not by their end to end rushes or offensive stats but rather, by their passion and effort they play with each and every shift. While they may not have the star label put on them by the fans, their teammates can’t imagine the team without them.

With that said, who are some of the “heart and soul” players in D1. As I mentioned above, I consider Bills for Minnesota to be one.

[brookyone]

For Minnesota, Bills certainly qualifies as you state but IMO this past season's heart & soul for Minnesota, beyond the obvious "stars" was La Toya Clarke. There really are a couple more that could also fit the description but I'll limit my nomination to the one clear choice for me...La Toya. La Toya is more in the "goal scorer" catagory than your typical "grinder" I think but I still consider her the 03 / 04 Gopher's heart & soul.

[dave1381]

It shouldn't be any surprise to find a successful team's heart and soul in its captains and/or future captains. That's why these players are elected captains.

[ARM]

CHN, While I would normally agree on Bills, this year she was in street clothes half the time and walking wounded the rest, so her role was reduced. Most would agree Wendell and Darwitz are the pair who put the "go" in "gophers", so I'm guessing that you are looking more for the team's unsung hero.

Brooky is right in that you could go in many directions. Players like Brodt and Coulombe make up for being small in stature by bringing a lot of desire. Sanchez is another player who is all about effort. Nichols had games, like the 7-3 win over Dartmouth, where she inspired the whole team by being utterly fearless though only 5' 2" (and that is being very generous).

Personally, I'd go with Stephens, because Kelly is a rock in so many ways. I think she brings to the team what Ambria Thomas did for the first four seasons. She does everything well, and is exceptional at some of them. If a young girl is looking for somebody to model their skating after, #18 is a good place to start. She flies down the rink keeping up with Wendell and Darwitz on rushes, yet works just as hard when backchecking. She isn't afraid to throw her body in front of a shot, and always stands up for her teammates, even if it means taking on somebody considerably bigger, like a Tricia Guest. She shares the puck very well; I don't remember her failing to give the puck up at the right moment. She gives the effort game in, game out for the past three years. I suspect that she will be the best player in Gopher history to never receive her own coach's nomination for the Patty Kazmaier.

[brookyone]

...and I think #18 would be a clear choice for an 04/05 captain. My 2nd choice for 04/05 captain however would be an underclassman who I think clearly established exceptional & undeniable leadership abilities this past season...whether that were unprecedented or not.

[ARM]

Kris Scholz was a 4-year captain (although admittedly, upperclasmen were in short supply early on). Tracy Engstrom was a junior captain on a senior-laden team, and Bills was an alternate as a junior.

As far as other WCHA teams "heart and soul" players over the years, Corinne Rosen of Ohio St. is one who comes to mind. I don't think the Buckeyes have ever really replaced her. Sis Paulsen of Wisconsin is another obvious choice.

[scores]

I refer to a grinder as a hockey player that makes plays. This could be offense or defense.
Winning the battles on the boards or making a defensive play that creates offense. I think to be a great grinder you have to be willing to put the team first and forget about the papers. The more of these players you have and the more your scoring will be balanced and the more wins you will have. Just because some one is called a grinder does not mean they can not score or they are not a great skater. On the other hand to be a great grinder you have to be a very good skater. However, I am new to womens hockey only because my daughter is into the sport but from what I have seen is a lack of parity and thats why you see some girls with large numbers for points. I don't think you have as many boys throwing up these kinds of numbers however, I could be wrong it's been a long time since I have followed (high school, club, or college hockey).