European Soccer Part XIII

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
Actually most of Arsenal's current side (and past) were not nearly as successful at their prior teams before coming to Arsenal. Henry was wasting away as a wing at Juventus. Vieira was sitting on the bench at Milan (forget which one). Pires was doing ok at Marseilles, but nothing like he's done at Arsenal. Toure was no big deal before coming to Arsenal and has really bloomed. Ditto for Edu. And look at a guy like Anelka, where Wenger picked him up for a couple million pounds and then turned around shortly thereafter to sell him for 23 million. Wenger has had to pick out gems in the rough because Arsenal, while hardly paupers, haven't had the money to throw around like ManU. I don't even think Arsenal has spent as much money over these last years as Liverpool.

I would humbly submit that the first three individuals you mention, as members of Les Bleus, were known quantities within France, of which Wenger is a citizen (Houllier too, but it's not pertinent). Pascal Cygan as well, though he hasn't done much for Arsenal. Yes, Wenger has been savvy, but "gems in the rough" is a bit hyperbolic.

EDIT - I remember the day Juve sold Henry...hey, Trezeguet looked good too, it was an honest mistake. Who knew?

[Jon]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
"there's only one Arsene Wenger" (cue to Jon).

Zzzzz...

Sorry, missed my cue. :(

[Bob Gray]

Originally posted by x-cheque
I would humbly submit that the first three individuals you mention, as members of Les Bleus, were known quantities within France, of which Wenger is a citizen (Houllier too, but it's not pertinent). Pascal Cygan as well, though he hasn't done much for Arsenal. Yes, Wenger has been savvy, but "gems in the rough" is a bit hyperbolic.

EDIT - I remember the day Juve sold Henry...hey, Trezeguet looked good too, it was an honest mistake. Who knew?
Those three weren't members of Les Bleus at the time Wenger bought them. The fact that he developed them to the point where they're some of the best French players doesn't detract from his ability to pick them up for a very good price. There was just an recent interview with Pires where he admitted that nobody has helped his game develop like Wenger has. I honestly don't know many English soccer fans who don't credit Wenger for picking up a lot of gems in the rough. I could go on, with guys like Clichy, Ljundberg (an incredible bargain at 3 million), etc. And Vieira for 3.5 million has got to be the steal of the century, though far from the only steal Wenger has made.

Really the only player I can think of that fits your mold is Campbell. Wenger knows he can't compete financially for the biggest dollar transfers, so to compete successfully he has to pick up some "lesser" transfers who others such as ManU, pass over.

[Bob Gray]

Oh, and to answer your question about where I got the transfer information, I happened across an article that summarized Liverpool's transfers during the Houllier reign. But for general transfer information, here's a good source I use:
http://www.footballtransfers.info/index.asp

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
Those three weren't members of Les Bleus at the time Wenger bought them. ...

Really the only player I can think of that fits your mold is Campbell. Wenger knows he can't compete financially for the biggest dollar transfers, so to compete successfully he has to pick up some "lesser" transfers who others such as ManU, pass over.

Really, I was under the impression that Vieira was a big gun for the French U21 (still a Bleu, although a young bleu) squad when he was signed from AC Milan in 97-98. Wenger insisted on getting him as a condition of taking the manager job at Highbury, so clearly he wasn't an unknown in order for that to be a stipulation of his job. Soccernet also says he was a four million pound transfer, a steal nowadays but a reasonable sum way back in 1997, and even bigger when you consider how young he was at the time.

Pires was indeed a member of the French national team when he was bought for 6 million to replace Marc Overmars, he was on France's Euro 2000 squad that did rather well. Apparently he didn't play, but with Zinedine Zidane, Didier Deschamps and Emmaneul Petit in front of you, two years removed from a World Cup win, what do you expect? Wenger shelled out 13 million pounds after Euro 2000 for another proven Bleu - Sylvian Wiltord - neither a diamond in the rough nor a bargain, about what he was worth. Henry for 10.5 was a great buy, best striker in the world on a mediocre day, but again he played well for France's youth side prior to Wenger snapping him up, and Juventus knew they had something good, so that's not exactly a miracle find either.

I wholeheartedly agree that Wenger has made consistent wise choices, good players for reasonable amounts of money, and has made some exceptional transfers here and there. What I have a problem with are the reverence with which people treat him. He did his homework, knew what players he wanted and what players he could work with at Highbury. It's not like he's pulling rabbits out of hats here. He's done a great job with Arsenal, a real solid manager and leaps and bounds above his countryman Houllier, but sometimes people act as if he spun straw into gold, which is what sets me off.

[Bob Gray]

I'm not saying those French players were total unknowns, just that none of them were anywhere near what they have become since coming to Arsenal. Wenger certainly isn't infallable, as buying Wiltord (who is probably his biggest mistake in my mind) and others (Jeffers, etc.) has shown. But I'd say he's got one of the best track records around.

What you have to realize is that Arsenal fans look at what Wenger has done since he has come to Arsenal and realize that absent Wenger, the club could easily be nowhere near where it is now, possibly a regular mid table club, and likely would not have Ashburton Grove lined up. If you look at resources, Arsenal really are overachieving. While he isn't God by any stretch of the imagination, Wenger's impact on Arsenal really is hard to overstate. He has done a masterful job of maintaining the traditional Arsenal spirit, while modernizing training, etc. I wouldn't trade him for any manager in the world and given the rumors of him being pursued by a variety of other major clubs, he seems to be one of the most admired managers in the world, not just around Highbury. He does make mistakes. Certainly I think a number of his substitutions in games, particularly European games, have been questionable. But if he left today, Arsenal would quickly lose many of its top players and would return to being a club that won an occasional title, but probably not the club that is the main challenger at the top, with ManU (and Chelski it would seem).

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
I'm not saying those French players were total unknowns, just that none of them were anywhere near what they have become since coming to Arsenal. Wenger certainly isn't infallable, as buying Wiltord (who is probably his biggest mistake in my mind) and others (Jeffers, etc.) has shown. But I'd say he's got one of the best track records around.

What you have to realize is that Arsenal fans look at what Wenger has done since he has come to Arsenal and realize that absent Wenger, the club could easily be nowhere near where it is now, possibly a regular mid table club, and likely would not have Ashburton Grove lined up. If you look at resources, Arsenal really are overachieving. While he isn't God by any stretch of the imagination, Wenger's impact on Arsenal really is hard to overstate. He has done a masterful job of maintaining the traditional Arsenal spirit, while modernizing training, etc. I wouldn't trade him for any manager in the world and given the rumors of him being pursued by a variety of other major clubs, he seems to be one of the most admired managers in the world, not just around Highbury. He does make mistakes. Certainly I think a number of his substitutions in games, particularly European games, have been questionable. But if he left today, Arsenal would quickly lose many of its top players and would return to being a club that won an occasional title, but probably not the club that is the main challenger at the top, with ManU (and Chelski it would seem).

I hate to nitpick, but Vieira was only 21 when coming to Arsenal, so it makes sense he would get better as he matured, whether it was at Milan or Highbury. Pires didn't get much PT because of the more experienced vets in front of him, now that Petit is old and Deschamps is coaching he's featured, so is his success on Les Bleus Wenger's doing? Wiltord was a known quantity amd if anything has degenerated. Cygan was a bust. Henry, of course, was a revelation. I know I'm yapping here, and I know Wenger picked the right players, but I'm convinced that it wasn't much more of a feat that paying attention to goings-on in a top European footballing nation. He paid attention to the players on France's national side, got them, and proved that he knows how to use them.

EDIT - AND if I were Wenger I would not rest until I brought home a European trophy to Highbury. That, in the minds of many in football, is the true measure of success. I still can't believe that Arsenal could manage to go undefeated and not even get a double.

[Bob Gray]

Originally posted by x-cheque
I hate to nitpick, but Vieira was only 21 when coming to Arsenal, so it makes sense he would get better as he matured, whether it was at Milan or Highbury. Pires didn't get much PT because of the more experienced vets in front of him, now that Petit is old and Deschamps is coaching he's featured, so is his success on Les Bleus Wenger's doing? Wiltord was a known quantity amd if anything has degenerated. Cygan was a bust. Henry, of course, was a revelation. I know I'm yapping here, and I know Wenger picked the right players, but I'm convinced that it wasn't much more of a feat that paying attention to goings-on in a top European footballing nation. He paid attention to the players on France's national side, got them, and proved that he knows how to use them.

EDIT - AND if I were Wenger I would not rest until I brought home a European trophy to Highbury. That, in the minds of many in football, is the true measure of success. I still can't believe that Arsenal could manage to go undefeated and not even get a double.
Yes, you are nitpicking, and with all due respect, you just aren't very correct about some of these players. Vieira is arguably the best midfielder in the world and there's no way Milan would have sold him for 3.5 million (which still wasn't that much 7-8 years ago) if he was anywhere near what he became at Arsenal. To say Wenger has just ridden him getting older is nonsense. Petit is a central midfielder, Pires is on the wing, so Petit's playing wouldn't have mattered to Pires. Not sure about Deschampes. Wiltord has scored some big goals, but hasn't lived up to his hype or cost. Cygan had a bad first year, but was very solid this year when he played in a good number of games. There was some argument among Arsenal fans as to if he should even be sat when everyone else became available.

And he's picked up a lot of very nice players outside France, including Toure, Lauren, Kanu, etc. Your really given him short shrift.

If what he's done is no big deal, then why don't lots of managers build such sides? There are certainly a good number of teams (including Liverpool of course) that have as much or more resources than Arsenal. I can't believe I'm having to explain Wenger's success, particularly after this season! Not winning the FA Cup and/or CL was certainly disappointing, but two close losses in a stretch of 4 days (both of which could easily have gone Arsenal's way) is what stood between Arsenal and a double or treble. And don't get me started on the shaft job the FA gave Arsenal by moving up Newcastle's match (so Newcastle had more rest for the UEFA Cup game), meaning Arsenal had to play ManU, Chelski, Liverpool, and Newcastle in 8 days. Because of that, Wenger didn't field full strength squads in any of those games. Stinking FA! Ya, screw Arsenal for Newcastle's rest! Grr..... :mad:

[Jon]

Since my knowledge of this current discussion is restrincted to the fact that there is only one Arsene Wenger ;) , I'll just report that I picked up Winning Eleven Seven last night and I love it. Better than WE6, that's for certain. I've already started editing Celtic, Arsenal and Rangers (thankfully, about half of the Italian teams are actually included, meaning that I don't have to edit AC Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma or Juventus, but I do have to edit Inter Milan for some reason...) so they actually look like the real teams. The game play is almost identical, but it does seem easier to score this year, which is a plus, since the last version of this game claimed at least one of my controllers. :(

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
Yes, you are nitpicking, and with all due respect, you just aren't very correct about some of these players. Vieira is arguably the best midfielder in the world and there's no way Milan would have sold him for 3.5 million (which still wasn't that much 7-8 years ago) if he was anywhere near what he became at Arsenal. To say Wenger has just ridden him getting older is nonsense. Petit is a central midfielder, Pires is on the wing, so Petit's playing wouldn't have mattered to Pires. Not sure about Deschampes. Wiltord has scored some big goals, but hasn't lived up to his hype or cost. Cygan had a bad first year, but was very solid this year when he played in a good number of games. There was some argument among Arsenal fans as to if he should even be sat when everyone else became available.

And he's picked up a lot of very nice players outside France, including Toure, Lauren, Kanu, etc. Your really given him short shrift.


Wenger's success doesn't need to be explained, rest assured. Believe me, I can read sports pages, I know he's winning football matches. His god-like status with some individuals, however, does need explanation.

Re: Vieira, nitpick #1 Soccernet says he was sold for 4 million, still not an egregious sum but about right for a promising midfielder. I have no idea how soccer players mature, it's still quite a mystery to me. I will risk it that while he has developed marvelously while playing at Arsenal for six-seven seasons, to say it's all Wenger is to take quite a bit away from Vieira.

The French National team is arguably the best in the world, and even more so in 1999-2001 after winning both Euro 2000 and the 98 World Cup, so to take some of its less proven stars and put them on a club team isn't exactly brilliance. I edited that post once or twice so I forgot to mention the best midfielder in the world at the time who also happened to be French, Zinedine Zidane of "I scored two goals on Brazil" fame. France is still loaded with talent, talent that i might add is no state secret. Don't get me wrong, Wenger's done great things with the talent but he hasn't exactly unearthed the Holy Grail.

I'm not trying to give him short shrift, as I've said I hold him in only the highest regard. I do feel he could do to be de-mystified.

And you're insinuating that had Arsenal got past Chelsea in the C/L a double would have been assured, a treble likely? Please. That's the type of hyerbole I'm trying to rail against.

[Bob Gray]

A double or treble wasn't assured, and I didn't say it was. But if Arsenal got by Chelsea, they would have been the favorite among the remaining teams and if they had gotten by ManU, they would have been prohibitive favorites to beat Millwall, especially since they have clinched the title early so they could rest players for the finals.

I still don't think you are giving enough credit for the Vieira deal. Here's a sample of other sizable transfers, in pounds, around the same time:
Dwight Yorke, 12.6
Henning Berg, 5
Dean Holdsworth, 3.5
Kevin Davies, 7.25
Marcel Desailley, 4.6
Georgi Kinkladze, 5
Alan Shearer, 15
Juninho, 12.5
Gary Flitcroft, 3
Gianfranco Zola, 4.5
Andrei Kanchelskis, 5.8
Les Ferdinand, 6

Patrick Vieira at 3.5 is the best deal out of any of those, dollar for dollar (though a few Chelski fans might argue for Zola).

And of course a player's development isn't 100 percent the manager, but a good manager can have a huge impact, as Wenger does. Arsenal players up and down the line, both current and former, swear by Wenger's abilities. As I said before, he's not God or anything, just a fine football coach.

Zidane is another midfielder. Again, Pires is a wing. Pires himself has said he wasn't the player he is now, and it's thanks to Wenger.

P.S. Thanks for a nice discussion. It's nice to find people who disagree on something, but can discuss it like reasonable people. Not trying to end the discussion, just wanted to say thanks.

[Nathan]

Yeah, but that 12.5M for Yorke as totally worth it since he brought a Treble to United!

[ColbyWMHB]

Arsenal finishes off the undefeated season, 2-1 today over Leicester (after a slight, slight scare, being down at the Half, although was anyone really concerned that Arsenal would be blanked at home by the Foxes?)

Despite this being the only honour on the year for the Gunners, it's certainly monumental....they can start going for 2 straight unblemished seasons in August! :D

[Terrierbyassociation]

IMMORTAL ARSENAL.

I thought I would never see it!!!

Congrats to Arsenal and Arsene Wenger.

[3W]

No Europe for Villa after ManU take the 2-0 win. Very disappointing when you see how good a season they had.

[x-cheque]

Lpool settle for a 1-1 draw with Newcastle, Owen pulling the Reds level with his 19th of the year in the 2nd half.

Altogether an uninspiring end to an uninspired year, though I thought they would get 3 points late on. At end of the match, Newcastle had to stick together in their own end very well and did. Too bad for the Magpies; had it not been for injury the 4th Champs League spot would be (deservedly) theirs. The Liverpool side that's been showing up lately (i.e. the winning side) had better make the trip to the Champs League.

Congrats to Arsenal; bring the CL title home to England next year!!

[nubobcat]

My father was in england this week and got to see a West Ham United game. He said it was pretty cool because the teams needed to both win to have a chance at promoting to the premiership

[Bob Gray]

Great day for the Gunners. I was glad they won today instead of cruising to another draw. They actually showed some of their trademark flair today. Thanks Wenger and company for a fabulous season.

I was hoping FSW would have a half an hour for the trophy presentation and celebration, like they did for ManU last year and for Werder Bremen this morning, but it was not to be. They did get a few minutes of it, but more substantive coverage would have been welcome.

[FerrisLives]

West Ham lost 1-0 in the first leg of the playoff today to Ipswich though. In the other playoff semifinal Crystal Palace beat Sunderland 3-2. Sunderland and Crystal Palace meet again at the Stadium of Light on Monday. And West Ham and Ipswich meet at Upton Park on Tuesday.

[Don King]

Let's go Hammers!

No idea why I care. One of my friends is a West Ham fan, I guess, as is Kiera Knightley, which I suppose is as good a reason as any to cheer for a team in the playoffs.

One problem: after searching, I still can't figure out when the playoff finals are. Last year, if memory serves, the 3rd Division was on the Saturday before Memorial Day, the 2nd Division on the Sunday, and the 1st Division on Memorial Day itself.

The official Nationwide page has this exactly backwards this season. Anybody know what the real deal is? I really enjoyed watching Wolves v. Sheffield Utd last season (still have it on tape, as a matter of fact), and I'd like to watch the finals again.