European Soccer Part XIII

[Nathan]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
Merchandise United is a publicly traded company beholden to its shareholders
True, but I have no problem with ManU being a publicly traded entity. Not only does it assist in their economic viability (as they are probably the biggest money maker in all of professional sports if you factor in ticket sales, merchandise, financial holdings, etc.) but it creates a situation in which the club should (theoretically) maintain a high bond rating and economic standing in order to create a profit margin for its shareholders.

I like the idea of having the public at large being able to trade shares of Manchester United PLC stock, and would like to see that concept move into other aspects of sport. You think the Vikings would have a situation like Red McCombs attempting to deal with Los Angeles, or Carl Pohlad being a major league ******* if there was a Board of Directors and shareholders meetings? They don't necessarily have a say in the day to day football operations, but instead have a say in the economic proceedings of the club.

[x-cheque]

So despite a more lucrative deal from an English businessman - 73 million to the Thai PM's 60 million for a 30% stake - Liverpool has sealed the deal with Thaksin Sinawatra and Thailand.

This link explains it all pretty well, though Lpool have yet to officially comment, and there's a bit of uncertainty with # of shares and etc. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=300104&cc=5901

Can't say I think it's bad - it will be good for the club and the brand to get Southeast Asian exposure and, as has been said on this board, potential talent from the area as well.

Not to mention cash for transfers! Alan Smith, Djibril Cisse? Or another coach - Didier Deschamps, Claudio Ranieri, Marcelo Lippi? All these would be fun to watch lead Liverpool next year - IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE :D :D :D

EDIT - some of their summer plans, rumors all but fun nonetheless, are revealed here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/3707795.stm
Owen Hargreaves? I'd take it :D

EDIT - I really ought to do my research before I post, it appears the deal is not set at all. - From ThisIsAnfield.com - -
Thaksin Shinawatra says he will buy into another club if his proposal is rejected by the Liverpool board. "There are many clubs which have expressed interest and want to be our partners," said the Thai PM. "If Liverpool agree to our original conditions there will no problem, but if they seek new conditions we will look for new clubs."

As more information about Shinawatra comes to light Liverpool fans are hardly greeting him with open arms. It is reported he had previously attempted to buy into Fulham, while photos of Shinawatra accepting a Man United shirt from Alex Ferguson for his birthday last season are not encouraging signs.

[Terrierbyassociation]

Cisse for sure. He wants to play for Houllier, oddly enough.

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Terrierbyassociation
Cisse for sure. He wants to play for Houllier, oddly enough.

he's the poor man's arsene wenger

[Bob Gray]

Liverpool are very fortunate that they seem to be squeezing out the final CL spot (though it's not a done deal yet). If they didn't get the CL spot, Owen might very well leave, and they'd have a tougher time spending their new money as a lot of folks, including Cisse, might give second thoughts to going to a club without CL games next season. Of course if Liverpool play like they did this year, they'll be out of the CL quickly anyway, like Newcastle was last year.

[Bob Gray]

Originally posted by x-cheque
he's the poor man's arsene wenger
Houllier is not the poor man's Arsene Wenger. for one thing, "there's only one Arsene Wenger" (cue to Jon). For another thing, Houllier doesn't have the eye for players Wenger has, nor the ability to command players' respect and allegiance the way Wenger does. It's common knowledge that there's grumbling against Houller in the Liverpool locker room. You never saw that with Wenger, even when Arsenal have hit some low spots in past years.

[x-cheque]

I see some similarities, beyond their shared nationalities, but all that leave Houllier 2nd place so i think the comparison holds some water. Houllier has an eye for players, though Wenger's is better. Djibril Cisse did explicitly state he wanted to play for Houllier. And if Arsenal had a season similar to Liverpool's, with expectations being sky high and results such as 2-nil to Soton being a weekly fixture, I could imagine a similar "grumbling' in the Highbury locker room - especially after the fiasco with Manchester United early in the year. But, the freaking gunners didn't lose - aside from the FA cup and the CL :D :D :D - so everyone was happy. Hooray.

Wenger is a fantastic manager but sometimes it seems as if people think he's the 2nd coming. He's human. He's fallible. But not this season.

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
Liverpool are very fortunate that they seem to be squeezing out the final CL spot (though it's not a done deal yet). If they didn't get the CL spot, Owen might very well leave, and they'd have a tougher time spending their new money as a lot of folks, including Cisse, might give second thoughts to going to a club without CL games next season. Of course if Liverpool play like they did this year, they'll be out of the CL quickly anyway, like Newcastle was last year.

They have to play in the preliminary rounds early next season, just like Man U, but it is a done deal. They're in. Fourth place is Liverpool's.

[Bob Gray]

Yah, I hadn't checked the Newcastle-Southampton score today, but the draw seals it for Liverpool. Too bad, as it would have been fun for the Newcastle-Liverpool match to be for fourth place.

Houllier has an eye for talent, but unfortunately is a bad one. He has one of the most horrific transfer histories of anyone in the English game and if Liverpool's board so hesitant to fire managers through history, Houllier would be long gone.

Wenger has been at Arsenal long enough that he's had some times when the team could have started complaining, but they didn't. He commands much more respect from his players than Houllier does. It's abundantly evident. I really don't get why people defend Houllier. A lot of Liverpool fans dread every day he remains on the touchline. Of course from my Arsenal perspective, he can stay there for another ten years, and I'll be happy, as Liverpool will be a much bigger worry when they get a better coach. Houllier isn't terrible, but he just isn't up to the challenge of running a big club in the EPL.

[x-cheque]

Agreed, with reservations. I feel Liverpool would be better suited with another man as manager, as I mentioned I wouldn't mine seeing Didier Deschamps and some other candidates in his position. And can his eye for players be considered bad? Perhaps unlucky. He's had talent come in and perform poorly or inconsistently.

I'm only defending Houllier in this context because I effin HATE arsenal :D.

[Bob Gray]

I just look at all the players brought into Liverpool and all the money spent and to me it's one of the worst track records I've seen in awhile. Everyone has some players that don't turn out well, but Houllier has had so many that I think you have to say it's more than bad luck.

[Bob Gray]

Here's a list of buys by Houllier up to the beginning of this season. Read it and weep (if you're a Scouser):

Ferri (£1.5m), Kippe (£700,000), Song (£2.7m), Traore (£550,000), Camara (£2.8m), Hyypia (£2.6m), Meijer (free), Henchoz (£3.5m), Westerveld (£4m), Hamann (£8m), Smicer (£4m), Heskey (£11m), Diomede (£3m), Babbel (free), Arphexad (free), McAllister (free), Barmby (£6m), Ziege (£5.5m), Vignal (£500,000), Sjolund (£1m), Biscan (£5.5m), Litmanen (free), Riise (£4m), Baros (£3.4m), Dudek (£4.85m), Kirkland (£6m), Anelka (loan), Xavier (£800,000), Le Tallec and Simana-Pongolet (£6m for both), Diarra (free), Cheyrou (£4m), Diao (£4m), Diouf (£10m), Luzi (loan), Finnan (£3.5m), Kewell (£7m). TOTAL: £116m.

Heskey cost 11 million! There's some decent buys there, but I'm hard pressed to identify one really good buy in the whole bunch, maybe Hyppia and Henchoz, and there's a good number of lemons. In the same period he only sold 47 million worth of players.

Wenger has done a nice job of selling some players for good value, including Anelka and the Overmaars/Petit sale.

[x-cheque]

Ahem!...good to see that Liverpool has such dedicated detractors. Speaks volumes for us fans :D.

Where'd you get your info? Just out of curiousity.

I don't have the time to pick it apart player by player, wish I did. Some rather big name signings have not panned out, among them Diouf and Heskey. Oh well, them's the breaks, they're probably both on the way out.

And I ain't weeping, this season was rought but I keep in mind that Liverpool has still pulled home more hardware than any EPL club - treble in 2001!! - to date, with or without artillery pieces on their shirts and Dieu himself pacing the sidelines.

[3W]

I was happy to see the Newcastle result, because that means an equal or better result for Aston Villa over the Geordies will mean a chance at Europe. The bad news is that we have ManU on Sunday. Any chances Alex's boys, with their position set, might take the day off? :D

[Bob Gray]

I don't think a Liverpool fan should be talking about hardware that's been won recently. Long term, yes. Recently I wouldn't trade Arsenal's 3 EPL titles and 3 FA Cups for Liverpool's haul, which mostly was that one year and included some minor hardware.

As for Sir Alex's charges taking the day off, I wouldn't doubt it, as they've taken a lot of days off lately. Either that, or they've declined so much that it just appears they are taking days off.

[x-cheque]

Originally posted by Bob Gray
I don't think a Liverpool fan should be talking about hardware that's been won recently. Long term, yes. Recently I wouldn't trade Arsenal's 3 EPL titles and 3 FA Cups for Liverpool's haul, which mostly was that one year and included some minor hardware.

As for Sir Alex's charges taking the day off, I wouldn't doubt it, as they've taken a lot of days off lately. Either that, or they've declined so much that it just appears they are taking days off.

Fully agreed that Arsenal has had the better of it at home (i.e. in England) as of late, but...

Sucess in Europe, chappie? Or, in this year's CL, at Highbury....? There's an UEFA Cup in that haul.

EDIT - Why can't Wenger win the big non league games? What gives?

(so goes the hot air of a 4th place teams supporter)

[Bob Gray]

Originally posted by x-cheque
Fully agreed that Arsenal has had the better of it at home (i.e. in England) as of late, but...

Sucess in Europe, chappie? Or, in this year's CL, at Highbury....? There's an UEFA Cup in that haul.

EDIT - Why can't Wenger win the big non league games? What gives?

(so goes the hot air of a 4th place teams supporter)
European success certainly is something that has eluded Wenger, but winning the UEFA Cup, while a nice achievement, is kind of like winning the NIT tournament in NCAA basketball. You're the best of the lesser lights. I'd say a CL quarterfinal like Arsenal reached this year (or a few years ago with Valencia) is in reality a bigger achievement than a UEFA Cup, despite not getting the hardware.

And I of course haven't mentioned the small matter of an undefeated EPL season which becons Arsenal saturday, something that not even the greatest Liverpool clubs of prior decades were able to achieve.

I actually don't even really dislike Liverpool that much, but I honestly think Houllier is a huge drag on that club and the longer he stays, the longer it will be before Liverpool are truly competitive at the top of the EPL. If it weren't for Steven Gerrard's play this season, Houllier would already be toast.

[Terrierbyassociation]

Originally posted by x-cheque
he's the poor man's arsene wenger

As a Liverpool fan(though Charlton has been my team for eons...)
I have to say this comment is asinine. I don't care if you root for the same team I do, that's just plain silly to say. Houllier is great at making excuses. Heskey for 11 million? What a bungle...though not as big a bungle as placing Heskey on Englands Euro 2004 team, when Sutton has been tearing it up in Scotland...

Wenger is an amazing manager, with a great eye for talent. Diouf is good at one thing, picking up yellows and red cards. Heskey whiffs on balls that I would at least put on target(though probably save-able) Diouf is horrible, and Danny Murphy should be on the pitch solely for the fact he's the only good set pieces man!!

Diao, Heskey, and Diouf have to go. They can take Smicer with them. Houllier is a horrible judge of talent. Offseason: Get Cisse and pair him with Owen.

Too bad real life isn't like Fifa 2003 sometimes. I remember during my Liverpool season I sold Heskey for 10 million to some Italian side(I think Inter Milan) and then bought Kieron Dyer from Newcastle. What a glorious day that was.

[x-cheque]

It was a throwaway comment made with little thought, and I apologize that it's ruffled so many feathers. Rest assured, I wish to see the man out. But...

Until then and beyond then I'll do whatever I can to belittle other clubs' accomplishments, as churlish as it may be. Completely agreed that Arsenal's premier league season is an absolute gem, but still their failure in Europe has to eat at them. Blew the FA cup, too. You'd think that the "best season ever" would at least garner you a double.

Best EPL team ever perhaps, so why couldn't they get past Chelsea when it counted? I'll take a UEFA trophy over nothing any day.

Playing devil's advocate, it's been said that the core of Arsenal's current side were known quantities in their home country, which they happen to share with the manager. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but most current Gunners signed under Wenger's tenure had success elsewhere before coming to Highbury. He picked the right men, certainly, but I wouldn't call his eye for talent supernatural.

[Bob Gray]

Actually most of Arsenal's current side (and past) were not nearly as successful at their prior teams before coming to Arsenal. Henry was wasting away as a wing at Juventus. Vieira was sitting on the bench at Milan (forget which one). Pires was doing ok at Marseilles, but nothing like he's done at Arsenal. Toure was no big deal before coming to Arsenal and has really bloomed. Ditto for Edu. And look at a guy like Anelka, where Wenger picked him up for a couple million pounds and then turned around shortly thereafter to sell him for 23 million. Wenger has had to pick out gems in the rough because Arsenal, while hardly paupers, haven't had the money to throw around like ManU. I don't even think Arsenal has spent as much money over these last years as Liverpool.