Girls Prep Hockey

[whfan]

[QUOTE=Radar3535]It is great that the Polar Bears have qualified for the Nationals .I want to congratulate them and wish them all the best at Nationals.

Point well taken - I'm making assumptions without even knowing how the competition for the Bears stacks up this year. My apologies to any of the girls on the Stars or any other teams competing to go to nationals in the Conn. area. I'd like to hear any opinions on the competing regional teams for the Polarbears, should anyone have any info.

[coolsports]

[QUOTE=Radar3535]It is great that the Polar Bears have qualified for the Nationals .I want to congratulate them and wish them all the best at Nationals.

Point well taken - I'm making assumptions without even knowing how the competition for the Bears stacks up this year. My apologies to any of the girls on the Stars or any other teams competing to go to nationals in the Conn. area. I'd like to hear any opinions on the competing regional teams for the Polarbears, should anyone have any info.

I have not seen any of the other teams but based on comments from the various D1 coaches the Bears look to have another good team. Some have suggested that they would rank them in the top three. Shattuck and HoneyBake being the others. I'm guessing, historically this would be about right.

[Radar3535]

Sorry to say I do not have a daughter. Just happen to follow womens/girls hockey.
You see alot of girls hockey games and hear what alot of D1 coaches have to say.I would venture to take a guess that you must be a college coach.

[coolsports]

You see alot of girls hockey games and hear what alot of D1 coaches have to say.I would venture to take a guess that you must be a college coach.

Not quite. Let's just say I am in the sports business that has me seeing a lot of games! Sometimes too many!! LOL

In either case, I think there is not finer game as hockey. IMHO I also feel the women's game is most underrated.

[moxie]

I have not seen any of the other teams but based on comments from the various D1 coaches the Bears look to have another good team. Some have suggested that they would rank them in the top three. Shattuck and HoneyBake being the others. I'm guessing, historically this would be about right.
Historically speaking SSM has one national championship, Berkshire has one DI NE championship and I don't know of any Honeybaked national championships. Clearly those three are all top contenders this year for their respective championships but Nobles, Assabet and the Polar Bears have a little more history.

[whfan]

IMHO I also feel the women's game is most underrated.

I couldn't agree with you more coolsports, but it's a shame how women's hockey gets ignored by the media in general. (at least in my area of the country). I've watched women's basketball, soccer, softball and volleyball on tv here, but I've never seen a women's hockey game televised. (except the Olympics). I think if they would show games on a regular basis, the women's game would start to develop a wider fan base, and you would actually see people other than scouts and family in the stands. They literally don't know what they're missing.

[Radar3535]

Historically speaking SSM has one national championship, Berkshire has one DI NE championship and I don't know of any Honeybaked national championships. Clearly those three are all top contenders this year for their respective championships but Nobles, Assabet and the Polar Bears have a little more history.
When did NE prep schools become part of USA Hockey?

[coolsports]

When did NE prep schools become part of USA Hockey?

Agree. And it does open that issue of SSM. I'm going to say this is counter to what Vermont or district has said regarding NAHA. I would probably fall on the side that says, if you are a school (of any type) you should not be accepted into nationals. All players can and do play for differnt clubs. IMHO this is good for the girls and the game in general.

[ref11]

FYI - Girls Preps are not part of USA Hockey. They play under NCAA rules (in the Northeast). Clubs like Honeybake, Polar Bears ect. fall under USA Hockey :cool:

[Hux]

FYI - Girls Preps are not part of USA Hockey. They play under NCAA rules (in the Northeast). Clubs like Honeybake, Polar Bears ect. fall under USA Hockey :cool:

Speaking of which: When you look at the membership stats for girl's/women's teams on USA Hockey, there are only two high school teams listed for Massachusetts. This certainly throws off the participation numbers, particularly since the high school ranks have been expanding in this area. It would be nice to have free membership for high school teams, or work out something so that the high school aged players are included in the stats.

[ref11]

Agree. And it does open that issue of SSM. I'm going to say this is counter to what Vermont or district has said regarding NAHA. I would probably fall on the side that says, if you are a school (of any type) you should not be accepted into nationals. All players can and do play for differnt clubs. IMHO this is good for the girls and the game in general.
Agree with coolsports re:NAHA. NAHA is somewhat unique with that status. :cool:

[Radar3535]

Agree. And it does open that issue of SSM. I'm going to say this is counter to what Vermont or district has said regarding NAHA. I would probably fall on the side that says, if you are a school (of any type) you should not be accepted into nationals. All players can and do play for differnt clubs. IMHO this is good for the girls and the game in general.This is only my theory.I think that SSM stepped up and decided they would register with USA Hockey when it was very tuff for organizations in Minn.to put teams together because of the state HS rule about playing club hockey during the HS season.I think USA Hockey would take back their decision to allow SSM to register.Now NAHA wants to do it and what next? All of the NE preps? Then you will have six day a week programs competing with 2-3 day a week programs?I have talked with some from the Chicago area that want the minimum amount of games changed from 10 to 20 to basically eliminate the prep school players in the East.I think that is a little drastic.I wouldn't want to win a National Championship that way. But you have draw the line somwhere.

[toots]

I have talked with some from the Chicago area that want the minimum amount of games changed from 10 to 20 to basically eliminate the prep school players in the East.

Changing that rule would not "basically eliminate the prep players in the East" who play for Assabet, anyway. It won't be that easy because parents (and Carl Gray) are still in charge and seeking that elusive Full Ride for their little Cammi. With the required Rhode Island (Thanksgiving) and Polar Bear (Christmas) tourneys, players would be half-way to the 20 needed and the teams play a game just about every Sunday from early Oct to end of February. At Assabet, the teams already play another Assabet team an age-level up or down anytime there is not another club team to beat up on.

Thiat proposed rule change might hurt the split season teams (which are wonderful for the girls who do play prep), but it would just continue to force the girls to skate 6 days a week for their prep team and on every Sunday for their club team. It would not stop these teams, just force them and their players to play "enough". But in my opinion, they would choose to do so, at the players' peril.

Not a good situation, but it will take a massive change in thinking for parents to think they had to make a choice between prep or club when their child is 13 years old. They want both. Most of the parents, especially those who function as their daughter's club coaches, think nothing of having them skate every day. "Won't hurt 'em" is the thinking. Most of these parents have no idea the time pressures that the players feel each and every day at prep school.

In the girls' minds, a day off on a Sunday is a dream come true. But the power to decide lies elsewhere.

The NE preps (again, in my opinion) want nothing to do with competing for a national title as a school team. Winning New Englands is quite the accomplishment with the level of play extremely high and most of the coaches, in their heart of hearts, wish the players would not double-roster on a club team. But most don't forbid it. They deal with the fallout in January and February when the girls are exhausted every Monday and the coach can't skate them hard.

[BKDad]

Toots appears to have sized up the situation in the Northeast exactly, at least from my observations.

Every year, there is always some discussion with regard to "doing something" about the prep girls who roster for the club teams. Many (not all) of these players don't and can't show up for practice and miss many of the games. This makes it hard for the club coach to run a practice. When the parents have to drive 100 plus miles to a game in bad weather, this sentiment really becomes evident. Of course, the situation has stayed the same for a number of years.

On the flip side, many of the prep coaches must feel that USAHockey club teams get in the way of their program as well. The coaches often put limits on the girls' participation in the club teams, especially when the play-offs roll around. Often the timing of the play-offs is such that they conflict with or are close to the regional play-offs in some districts. Imagine what happens there. Imagine how the girls feel.

It's kind of a funny situation. Often the main reason girls go to prep school is for hockey and the exposure they get. That's not always true, but it is more often that people are willing to admit (why is it that the public school is academically sound enough for the brother or sister who doesn't play hockey?) Often the main reason girls play club hockey is for the exposure they get. How much exposure do you need?

Maybe the best thing, at least for the girls, would be if the club teams played the prep teams during the season. The non-prep girls could then play for the club teams, and the prep girls play for their school. They'd get equal "exposure" and the same competition. Some club teams do play prep teams now, and it seems to work out well. Because of the age divisions, it's often lop-sided in favor of the prep team (U14 versus prep, for example) but not as much as you might think.

One other observation that is a puzzle to me. Many of the girls who go off to prep school find that they aren't as high on the performance totem pole with their club team when they come back to play with the club. It's not because the coach or kids distance them or that they get less ice time; they just seem to have "slipped" some. Maybe that's because they aren't as used to playing with the club players, or they are tired as has been mentioned. Any thoughts?

[teresa greene]

Winning New Englands is quite the accomplishment with the level of play extremely high and most of the coaches, in their heart of hearts, wish the players would not double-roster on a club team. But most don't forbid it. They deal with the fallout in January and February when the girls are exhausted every Monday and the coach can't skate them hard.
I cannot imagine a prep school coach who does not recognize the value of the higher level of competition the club teams do offer.
When you look at the rosters of the prep school teams that are highly competitive, you will see that most of the impact players do play for other club teams that compete in the Nationals. When you look at the rosters of the DivI college varsity teams and particularly those "recruited" with hockey scholarships, most players have supplemented their high school hockey with a high level club team. Playing for just the prep school team does not seem to develop the player for the higher level when there are usually just a handful of real impact players on each prep school team, and then these select players are dramatically "overplayed" (ie double shifted, usually play 80% of the game) in their high school games. The club teams help prepare players for the extended Div I college season that runs Sept - early March; while the high school season only runs Dec - early March. Indeed, most of the high school teams benefit from having the club players prepared to jump right into the ice hockey season.
Most of the club teams do and should have modified "split" seasons to let the prep schools focus on Jan and Feb.

[gotice]

Agree with coolsports re:NAHA. NAHA is somewhat unique with that status. :cool:

NAHA and SSM are unique from other prep schools, in that they play a club schedule. From September or October through March or April. Yes they practice 4-5 days a week most weeks (The teams do not get 4-5 practices every week, because you have to figure travel days and games into the mix.), but I have to tell you that some of the top club teams practice 4 days a week when you add their skills practices. Yes SSM and NAHA bring in girls from all over, but so do the Club teams. So tell me what the difference between the two concepts are. SSM does not allow dual rostering on any of their teams, and NAHA does not allow it on their top team. These two programs are more along the lines of a club format, then a prep format and should be registered with USA Hockey.

[coolsports]

NAHA and SSM are unique from other prep schools, in that they play a club schedule. From September or October through March or April. Yes they practice 4-5 days a week most weeks (The teams do not get 4-5 practices every week, because you have to figure travel days and games into the mix.), but I have to tell you that some of the top club teams practice 4 days a week when you add their skills practices. Yes SSM and NAHA bring in girls from all over, but so do the Club teams. So tell me what the difference between the two concepts are. SSM does not allow dual rostering on any of their teams, and NAHA does not allow it on their top team. These two programs are more along the lines of a club format, then a prep format and should be registered with USA Hockey.

Could not disagree with you more. Let's use the PolarBears as an example.

The Bears practice once a week versus your example of 4-5 for SSM. In addition the PB's rarely have anywhere near a full team (Yes, most play on the Preps). Usually, 5-8 girls per practice.

Games, roughly enough to make the minimum for USA National's. And if they do play it in the practice slot. If a game is played then no practice for the week. For the games, they are lucky to have two lines. I happen to see a PB's game this year where they only had a line and a half with 3 D. I'm guessing SSM and NAHA plays more than that.

Outside the ice most of these girls I believe go to the Prep's. Which means they are going to class 6 days a week and being driven hard to overachieve on the books. During finals that means testing 7 days. Yes, they do practice at the preps during the season but not as a club team.

So to be fair let's acknowledge the difference. Practice 1 per week vs 4-5 per week. Games, maybe 12 vs 30+?. Total team interaction minimal vs every day.

This is why I see a big advantage to SSM or if included NAHA.

[gotice]

There are top club teams outside of the Northeast, Honeybaked, Team Illinois, CYA and others, that have more practices than once a week. The advantage that the Assabet. and Polar Bear clubs have over these teams, is that the majority of their players do have ice practice every day at their prep school in addition to practicing with their club team. (up to 6 practices a week).

All hockey players have school 5 days a week, plus homework, jobs, and other high school sports, so that is not a viable excuse or justification for not allowing some teams to participate in Nationals.

It is not the rest of the Nations fault that the Prep teams and the club teams in the Northeast overlap their schedule. Why should a player that has committed to playing for only one team be prevented from participating at Nationals, because her conterpart wants to play for two teams, therefor is stretching herself too thin and can't make all of the practices or games of her club team during her prep season. It is not the fault of a SSM or NAHA, that other prep schools allow their players to dual roster. It is not their fault that the club team allows their girls to dual roster. To prevent them from participating at Nationals because of the choices of other clubs, is wrong. If Assabet or the Polar Bears want to have enough girls at all of their practices, don't allow for dual rostering. It is that simple. If the prep schools don't like tired girls on Monday, don't allow dual rostering. Another solution is to have true before/after programs. Play with your club until the prep season starts and then go back to your club after the prep season is over.

[coolsports]

Gotice, you miss the point. You have implied that the programs are equal and they are not. You can not say that a team that practices and plays a full game schedule as a complete team are equal to a team that does not. It does not matter the reason why but only the outcome. Teams do get better just by practicing and playing a season together.

To this point, and again only using the PolarBears as an example, I wonder how the PB's would look if they had the same schedule as SSM? I would suggest that they would be at the least slightly better than they are now.

Regarding student pressures and demands, I can only say you have never experienced the prep academics first hand. If you did you would not have suggested that there is not a difference in the demands of the students from the eastern prep schools.

[gotice]

Gotice, you miss the point. You have implied that the programs are equal and they are not. You can not say that a team that practices and plays a full game schedule as a complete team are equal to a team that does not. It does not matter the reason why but only the outcome. Teams do get better just by practicing and playing a season together.

To this point, and again only using the PolarBears as an example, I wonder how the PB's would look if they had the same schedule as SSM? I would suggest that they would be at the least slightly better than they are now.

Regarding student pressures and demands, I can only say you have never experienced the prep academics first hand. If you did you would not have suggested that there is not a difference in the demands of the students from the eastern prep schools.

So based on your theory of fair, the only teams that should be allowed to participate at Nationals are the Northest programs. All other club teams in the USA practice together all year long, have more than one practice a week as a team, and do not have the "rigorous" schedule, as you put it, that the Northeast girls do. Therefor all other club teams outside of the Northest, should not be allowed to participate at Nationals.

With regards to the demands of a student, this is all relative. Who are you to say that a girl attending a public school in the midwest while playing for her local club team, participating in school club activities, holding down a part time job, or doing community service is any less under pressure than the girl who attends prep school in the east. You assume too much. While in most cases the academics of the northest prep school may be more rigorous, to say that a student not attending a prep school has less pressure is just naive on your part.

I think the real issue, is that the Northest club teams are losing the image of the Powerhouses of girls hockey in the nation and don't like it. The northeast has more than SSM and NAHA to worry about when it comes to Nationals. There is also Honeybaked, Team Illinois, The Wisconsin Wild, Cal Selects, and Colorado to contend with, just to name a few. They all play as a team all year long, recruit from all over the nation, and practice 3-4 times a week.