Girls Prep Hockey

[TCTornado]

Originally posted by SKATNMIASOV
hey toots, I won't argue with you, I'm sure there are some great schools with good programs on the E/C. I just have a problem with these "All Star" teams. I think you shoud dance whom you came to the dance with. I think any club team could recruit the best players in their area, play 8 USA hockey games and go to Nationals. I think it should either/OR for everyone. Just let players switch teams when theirs gets knocked out of the National Championship Picture
I'm not exactly sure how it is done in Minnesota, however I don't believe that girls can play high school and for Thoroughbreads, I believe that they are inelligible if the do. Besides Thoroughbreads have the same team from start to Finish because they play in the toughest league in the Country (MWEHL) and they are always right at the top. They could'nt do that losing players the whole year. The only team that ever did that was Team Illinois who had a couple of Culver Girls on their team a couple of Years ago. However Culver has since dropped out of the League.
I think they should raise the number of games a person has to play to be USA hockey eligible with a team, from 6 to 20. unless they were hurt and played no other games with anyone else.
The other issue is cost, I'm sure it is more affordable to be a week student at an E/C school and play club hockey and a little easire on the student and alot easier for club teams to find great players. Shattuck must however convince parents that the price tag will be worth it in the end for the player. That is where the challenge is, and that is where it is impressive that Shattuck can draw players for the entire year, year after year.

You appear very knowledgeable about MidWest hockey. Far less knowlegeable about East Coast hockey.
1. Club teams like Assabet and Chelmsford in MA are no more "All Star teams" that SSM is( more on that later). They have tryouts in August/early Sep and play through the fall and winter.The Assabet U-19 Red team has played 20 games so far( 2 versus Brown, so throw those out if you want). They are a 'real' team.
As has been pointed out, most prep schools require students to participate in a sport each season, so there are conflicts and some problems in getting to practice and/or games. However, having had some involvement with the "Selects' on the boys side as well as with the girl's club teams, I can tell you that practice attendance is far higher for the girls. And game attendance is very high- only valid excuse is usually a college visit. As has been pointed out, there are a number of very high end club teams in MA, several in CT, numbers increasing in NY. The point? No team has all the best players.
2. I have always found it peculiar that the MN district allows SSM to be their rep in the USA Nationals at the boys Midget level.( at least the women have to beat the ND selects to go, but c'mon....) Why? Because SSM has/recruits student/athletes from all over the world. Look at the current roster. How many from MN? How is this a MN team?Sidney Crosby was mentioned. One year and he's an SSM product? But more to the point, where is he from? Bottom line, IMO, is that it is really funny to label other District's teams "ALL Stars" when SSM is the MN District rep.

3. As to cost.
SSM
For the 2003-2004 school year, our tuition is $27,600 for a boarding student and $18,900 for a day student
Cushing
Tuition and Fees
$33,285 Boarding
$23,250 Day
Lawrence
Tuition for the 2002-2003 school year is $31,200 for boarders and $23,400 for day students
Berkshire
Boarding tuition/ room/ board: $31,500
Day student tuition: $21,750

I don't see substantial savings except possibly for Berkshire. Most of the MA girls I'm familar with DO board(Nobles has very small boarding program, so that's an exception.)

[moxie]

Originally posted by starsparents
The only criticism of all this, and its rampant here in Connecticut, is when clubs coaches/programs, play there players at age levels, instead of ability levels, in order to go to Nationals. They will take, say quality 16U players, who skillwise, belong or would be better served playing at their level (19U) not at their age, and they`ll play them in the 16U division, in order to go to Nationals, So, they play a bunch of uncompetitive games against weaker 16U teams, in order for a shot a one weekend (states/nationals) hockey. The kids get nothing out of it.

There are certainly factors other than ability level that goes into such decisions and to say that the kids get nothing out of playing their age level is off the mark. Not only does it depend on what a player wants out of their playing experience, such as winning a district or national title, a leadership role, comradery, etc., it is not demonstrable that playing their age level will limit their development. Using the Assabet 15U teams as an example, in 2001-02 Deborah Spillane could arguably have played 19U and in 2002-03 Sarah Parsons could have done so as well. In both cases they won National Championships at the their age level and continued to develop to an elite level. I know Sarah is now "playing up" on the 19U team but IMO this has more to do with the depth Assabet has at 16U and needing to improve their depth and chance of going to Nationals at 19U, not that she would get nothing out of playing 16U.

If you want an example of a problem with playing up just look at the Canadian Midget AA and Intermediate AA age groups in the Toronto area. You now have Intermediate teams with multiple Midget age players and the Midget teams bringing in Midget A or Bantam AA players to fill the spots. With so many parents thinking their kid is better than she is or will get more out of playing up, the ability level at both age groups has been diluted.

[tfmffan]

Moxie I have to agree with you. Playing with your own age bracket does have it's advantages. Mainly friendships. It hasn't hurt either Parsons or Spillane since they both made the Women's National Camp. From what I have seen the younger girls are getting better and better and unless you live in a remote area you should be able to find an appropriate team in your daughter's age bracket.

[vieux]

come on icebox, give us a hint.
she plays for her school team (is she a senior?)
but does not play for a club team this year (did she play for one last year?)
I'm guessing she is an offensive defenseman and she wears # 2

[ICEBOX]

She sees the ice like nobody else. If your honestly watching
and not being Bias its there as clear as day. ;) You can count
good prep Dwomen on one hand.

[funnybone]

Icebox....for those of us who know prep school hockey we could all pick our "favorite" non-club prep school defenseman. For those who do not know prep school hockey.........why not tell them who your "favorite" defenseman is. I would have to go with our own Cushing defensive.............Courtney Sheary..........

[radicalride50]

Anyone here anything about the prep school tournaments?

[vieux]

Tabor beat Taft 2-0 in finals to win Taft after beating Hotchkiss in a shoot out in the semis; Cushing beat Berskshire 3-1 to win Cushing and Nobles beat Pomfret 2-0 to win Harrington (see ushr.com and go to December news)

[starsparents]

Cushing beat Berkshire in a thrilling final in the championship, great games- in the other play-off tournament game, Lawrence beat Northwood with 12 seconds left in overtime, that was a great game also, and Gunnery upset Culver- great hockey again in New England!

[SKATNMIASOV]

TCTornado.

Actually the SSM girls have to play the only other Minnesota 19 and under team registered this year as in the past to go to Nationals. This would be the Thoroughbreads. North Dakota has absolutley nothing to do with Minnesota Hockey or Minnesota teams qualifying for Nationals. There were two Minnesota teams, however many girls are opting to play for their High school. Minnesota public high school hockey is a hot bed for College scouts and recruiting.
I also don't believe that playing a second sport carries any weight as far as a school being considered a "PREP" school. The class levels are what matter. I would also venture to say that as far as College Hockey goes, there is no other "PREP" school that "PREP" ARES it's student athletes for for Hockey after high school.(College Hockey).
As far as Crosby is concerned, he could have picked any school out east to play at this past year. However because he wanted to play at the highest level of Midget hockey he went to Shattuck. You can't knock a school for attracting the best. He will go down as another great Shattuck Alumni.
Why wouldn't Minnesota want SSM to represent them. You are talking about a dynasty as far as the boys program and success with it's three Nationals titles in the past 5 years. many say that this team is better than any team in the past. We'll get a good indicator of that at the MAC's (If you know what that is.) By the way Shattuck has dominated that Canadian tournament also.
As far as the tuition you quoted for those other schools, everyone knows only a fool pays retail. Show me what the average paid tuition is for students at any Prep School. I will venture to say that after financial aid is handed out, you will find these numbers significantly lower. You can put any price tag you want on what you are selling, but what did it really sell for??
Although the girls have never won a National Championship, I have to say the success of the Girls program is also at the top. In the past 5 years Shattuck has produced 21 D-1 players. I think that is tops as far as "Prep" schools go, any where. Pretty close to any Club team also. However I wouldn't know cause Shattuck is a Prep School.
Opinions are like third string goalies, they don't matter. I like to stick to the facts.

[TCTornado]

sk,
Maybe you should look at the SSM schedule. For some unknown reason they think they have to play in the MINNKOTA district playoff on 3/12/04. My info is that ND will be there. If that's wrong, does not change the fact that if either dakota wishes to, they can declare a team for Nationals and the MN team(s) must play them for the right to go.If the thoroughbreds will be there that's good. Much better than the boys getting a 'bye'

Maybe after that you should take a reading comp course. My comments about the prep schools here in the East requiring a sport each season were- I'll go slowly here- to explain why the club teams might not practice as much as they would like or as much as SSM does. SSM can obviously do as they like. Schools in the East have different priorities.

Perhaps SSM has placed 21 girls in the last five years. Perhaps not. It appears no more than about ten currently playing.
You say "I think" then "I like to deal with facts." DOH.
A number of preps can claim those numbers. Assabet often places every senior.

The MACs? 3 in a row WAS impressive. Last year, with Crosby, not so much:D



So, let me make sure I understand. The preps here in the East 'discount' their tuition, but SSM does not? Cause otherwise what you're saying makes no sense.

Crosby would not have picked a school out east, with possible exception of Northwood. He wanted to play 60 games, not 24-30.
Also, as it was widely known he would be one and done, some preps here would not have taken him. A PG is one thing, an underclassman another for that.
BTW "Alumni" usually refers to graduates.

Dynasty? The CM Outlaws thought they had one too... The EMASS Senators thought they had one too,...SSM boys is more likely to stay up than them, but.....

Are you really missing the point on SSM "representing" Minnesota? How does a team recruited by a school which happens to be in MN but usually includes only a few MN players represent MN?
MN used to 'opts' out of most of the Nationals anyway, boys and girls. Now they send SSM for Bantams on up for Boys.

I notice you didn't even try to stay with the 'All Star' stuff.

[mattj711]

Well said TC.

[SKATNMIASOV]

TCTornado

I just got off of the SSM website and I don't see N. Dakota on the schedule. perhaps you could call the Coaches and fill them in on this INSIDE info you have.
As far as the tutition goes, I would assume that every school offers some kind of financial aid. and what the school posts as tuition is far from what students actually pay. I thought you were posting the E/C schools to impress me with how much more they were than Shattuck.
I can't believe any of those E/C prep schools would turn away a player like Crosby. At the very least it's great press for a school and could help in drawing future recruits to the school. Oh I forgot, maybe the E/C schools are above recruiting. Which Coaches, specifically said they would not take Crosby?? or was this just more INFO you have.
To say that a MACs Championship is not that impressive simply because the team had Crosby is laughable. Everyone knows that one player does not make a champioship team, but a mix and a balance. I was pretty impressed with you until I read that. I assumed with all you appear know that you would be familiar with the teams and talent at that tournament from all over the world. However if you had told those other teams Crosby was playing, they would never of even showed up for the MACs that year.
I have to admitt that I was off on my count, but the numbers are still pretty impressive, and a touch more than the count that you came up with.

Jessica Tyschen,
Angie Wallace
Vickie Davis
Kelli Halcisak
Ashley payton
Meridith Roth
Amy Thomas
Rush Zimmerman
Myria heinhuis
kattie Anderson
Lindsay Tillbury
Laura lankton
Krissy langley
Jesica Finley
Brenna Louey
Jess. Kovacevich

It appears a little more than the ten you were so quick to try and correct me with.
All active and playing last I knew. If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me. What other Prep claims those numbers.? I'd be interested in knowing. While we are at it, let's include the boys programs also. If you get close with the accolaids from an E/C school I'll post SSM's.
In regards to the boys, who would you have them play? Since when did a BYE become such a bad thing. I find it hard to believe that Minnesota does not have one midget AAA team that wants to go to Nationals. maybe they just quit when they heard Crosby was playing. Yeah that's it.
Why is it so hard to swallow about the make up of Shattuck's players. it is no different than Niagra a U.S. College, having 19 Canadians on the team (Another issue in and of itself). The door is open to all. If you want to play there is a place for you on one of the 7 teams. They just tend to draw some really great players.
My mistake on the word Alumni. Allow me to correct. Crosby will be on the LONG list of great hockey players having played for Shattuck St. Mary's PREP school. That may very well be the first and last "School" team he plays for. I'm sure Shattuck was glad to find out that all those E/C schools did not want him.
I find it funny that when ever a "Prep" school discussion comes up, no one wants to talk about Shattuck. In the future you maybe it should be limited to just E/C Prep schools.
I would never have imagined there were so many Shattuck haters out there, I thought people liked GREAT HOCKEY.
A reading Comp. class? That really hurt, and to think it's Christmas.

[mattj711]

just curious...who does Jesica Finley plays for?...the only person I could find with that name is a goalie at clarkson that played for the national sports academy.

[SKATNMIASOV]

Matt711

You got the right one, although the roster lists her as having played for the NSA (as she did,) she attended Shattuck for Two years before leaving. for personal reasons and then on to the NSA after Shattuck had filled their goaltending needs for the following year.
It was not until this year that Ashley payton listed her last attended school as Shattuck, the years past she had listed an E/C school and Culver, so many did not know that she played her final years at Shattuck.
Any body else you are "just curious" about, let me know.

[SKATNMIASOV]

Matt711

if you are going to take the time to go over every D-1 roster to see if a girl actually played at Shattuck, at least take the two extra seconds to read the Bio's. then maybe we can move on to other things instead of things I have already pointed out.

It states right in Finley's Bio, that she played at Shattuck St. Mary's. GEEESH.

[mattj711]

Please...I simply didn't recognize her name and did a yahoo word search...it took all of five seconds. Why do you take everything as an attack? I was seriously just curious. Lighten up buddy.
I have nothing against Shattuck.

[TCTornado]

Where to start?
Well, first, I had hoped to get on and edit my post before you read, it SK. It was not in keeping with the holiday spirit of 'good will to all'. So I'm sorry about the 'reading comp' crack and some of the tone of the post.
Now then.
when I look at the SSM online schedule, I see:
1. that they have already played ND( and thrashed them, as they ought to)
2. They list, as I said, the MINNKOTA district playoffs on 3/12/04. To elaborate, MN is in a USA HOCKEY district with SD and ND. I was told at the RI Thanksgiving tourney that ND had declared for the Nationals. If that is incorect, which you have not shown, it does not change the fact that you are incorrect in stating that "North Dakota has absolutley nothing to do with Minnesota Hockey or Minnesota teams qualifying for Nationals. " Minnesota, unlike Massachusetts, is not a District in and of itself.
3. My point was that last year, SSM DID NOT win the MAC's, and that was with Crosby.link (http://www.macstournament.ab.ca/)
4. The coaches of Exeter, Deerfield and GDA were quoted in local papers on Crosby.
5. I was not challenging your count- you said five years, so some of those girls would be gone, correct? Just saying it was not easily verifiable. It appears from your posts to matt711 that the counts/names of players you posted are a little 'squishy'. That is, not unlike JR programs on the boys side, credit is taken if a player spent any time in a program.
SSM's 16* is the highest I see, though I don't know if Culver, NAHA, Choate, Deerfield or Notre Dame are meaningfully less.


6. On the boys side, where high school hockey is king( and very high quality, no argument), there is as you know no MN AAA full season Midget. The elite pre-season league is new. IIRC, one or two of those teams beat SSM last season. Maybe MN should let them declare for Nationals? But the bye is less a concern for me than SSM being the MN representative. MN is a huge hockey hotbed. They should, IMO, send a MN team. It has always appeared as if MN had 'issues' with the Nationals. As I noted earlier, they didn't use to send teams below Midget on the boys side. And now with MN's decision not to go along with the USA Hockey age/date changes, their teams could not go. So don't send any. Don't let a team made up of players from around the world allegedly represent MN.
Note that I don't hate SSM. I admire their program and accomplishments. And every Prep School recruits- some more than others, but they all recruit.SSM just don't belong in the USA Hockey Nationals, IMO.

[SKATNMIASOV]

TcTornado

The talk has actually been that SSM won't make out of their district. It is my understanding that the Minnesota hgh school All stars have a team and are registered to try and qualify for nationals. This team is made up of the top seniors in the twin cities area. They already beat Shattuck handily twice this year and are supposed to have played the minimum games necessary to qualify for Nationals. The team got in those games before the start of the girls season and will start back playing st the end of their school season. The team is all Seniors so eligibility next year won't be an issue as they will be gone. That is the only new team I have heard of in the district. (Rumor at this time) North Dakota has had a team the past three years and they have never even thought of qualifying for Nationals. It does not make much sense to travel to the twin cities for one game to get pasted and then go back home just to say you tried. I give the Minn all star team more credibility than the Dakota rumor.
I was interested in knowing if these Caoches were quoted before or after it was known Crosby was going to Shattuck. I think it easy to say you wouldn't do something of which you have no chance of ever doing. Like having Crosby seriously consider one of those schools. Were they ever in the running??
I have heard this before from others saying that Shattuck does not belong in the Nationals. I have heard others say that they really are not a prep school. Thank god they have somewhere to play. I'm curious though would there be so many vioces of opposition if the program was not at the level it is, and just another regular season hockey prep school. perhaps others could use their program as a model instead of a nail.
I would hardly call two Canadians on the team, representation from around the world. The majority of the team is made up of boys from Minnesota, Illinois and Wisconsin. Though I'm not positive I would venture to guess that the rosters in the past have the same geographical mix as this years. I wouldn't call them the Duluth of midget hockey.

[TCTornado]

Skat,
The talk was that Deerfield, Cushing and possibly Exeter has some chance. The fact that they were geographically closer to SC's home was supposed to be a factor. The pronouncements definitely came before any official annoucement of his SSM commitment. Whether it was known then, ???
I'd have to find some old Nationals 'programs, but I seem to recall at least one European in the last few years, thus my 'world'. I see TX, AL, GA on this years roster.

When I read the most recent available online MN Hockey board minutes, they reported letters from SSM and the thoroughbreds declaring for Nationals. Don't know the MN deadline...