View Full Version : Girls Prep Hockey
MetMary
04-01-2006, 09:24 AM
As far as the prep schools letting the girls out for the national tournament - I did a quick check on the Nationals website on the rosters from Assabet. I do not know all of the kids - but I did recognize quite a few girls that are playing who attend the prep schools listed below.
3 from Lawrence
5 from Nobles
2 from GDA
1 from Andover
1 from Deerfield
1 from St. Mark's
1 from Tabor
I do know from experience when our daughter played at the nationals we had to ask permission from the school 30 days in advance of leaving - we were then given a permission letter from the school with some outlines of what work would be expected. I also know one particular Catholic school in the boston area that will not allow anyone to be away from school at a tournament of any kind without penalizing the child - they will give them 0's for the time missed.
Taft Hockey
04-01-2006, 09:42 AM
Is there some place where there is any kind of chart to navigate through these waters? I'm thinking more about the prep school thing as well as hockey for prep/high school girls rather than about college. (There's books that discuss such things as Ivy AI in detail.) As best I can tell, at least so far, any girl who lives outside of Minnesota and doesn't go to a prep school is heading down a dead end. Maybe not academically, but for hockey that seems to be the reasoning. Is this just people (aka parents) trying to justify their choice? Or is it real?
BK, I think it mostly has to do with where your daughter wants to end up. “Dead end” implies that a certain path would get you “more” of something than another path would. If your daughter was meant to play DI hockey, chances are, she will. Proportionally, it is probably the bottom 40 (1 or 2 per team) or so players that head off to DI that, for one reason or another, landed a spot on a DI team but also would have fit in well at a good DIII team. The other 100 or so are offered spots there because it is obvious they can play at that level – not necessarily because of what their HS coach or prep-school did for them. Most DI staffs now have two full time assistants and they don’t miss too many kids. Do kids slip through the cracks? – sure, but not often.
Can that process be aided? – sure. You and your coach doing the right things at the right times in the recruiting process aides coaching staffs in their job and makes it easier for them to recruit you. But, none of that makes up for talent and ability – or lack thereof.
My advice to kids is do everything you can with regard to the recruiting process and timeline but don’t expect anything and be very happy and thankful if an offer comes your way. DI women’s hockey is no longer what it was in the mid 90’s when spots were much easier to come by.
So getting back to the dead end - it all depends on what your goal is. Your daughter doesn’t have to play HS Hockey in MN or at prep School to “make it”. I think last time I counted there were 43 DIII programs in the country, which translates roughly into 215 or so spots at that level available every year. Finding the correct fit where she is happy at that particular university or college and is part of a hockey program that she can contribute too is how I would define “making it.” Going to Taft, Choate, Nobles or moving to South St. Paul, MN won’t change who your daughter is and what she is capable - but finding the right fit will allow her to grow and develop more effectively. If you are in a particularly remote area and coaches won’t ever see your daughter play, your job is harder, but sending a tape is usually enough for a staff to decide if it is worth coming to see you play in person. If they think so, they’ll come see her play.
15 years ago, prep teams and a few club teams were the only places to play but things have changed a great deal since then. As others have mentioned, places like NAHA have emerged and are terrific options for kids looking for a different experience than Preps or clubs. I’m guessing the number of club teams has also tripled or quadrupled in the past 10 years. Just like finding a good fit for college, finding a correct fit for their high school experience is important. A kid who is only going to prep school to get 4 practices a week and is not interested everything else that is part of that experience, probably shouldn’t be there. Academically preps help you prepare for college well, but a good student will do well in the college process whether she is coming from a prep or a public school. So using preps as an “academic ticket” is also not advisable. Preps offer a certain type of experience and to get the most out of it, the kids should be there for the right reasons.
The only way to really know is to visit several different schools, as someone has previously suggested, and get a feel if it is the right place. Prep schools are not about fancy buildings as much as they are about the people who make up the community (teachers, staff, and students). They are the ones you have to be around all day long and are what make the experience. You can only judge that in person. There are guides to Prep Schools but they only give statistics and descriptions. The people are what make the place and you have to see if they are “your kind“ of people to be happy and successful there.
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. Taking the time to contact schools and coaches is an effective way of finding out if it is the right place for your daughter. There is no navigational chart, but I think you will find most people in hockey, be it girls or boys, prep or club, are pretty willing to help people who seek that help out.
This is a quick tally from the last 4 years of some of the mentioned prep schools including this years seniors(I dont claim this to be 100% but it is pretty close):
Cushing
3@ Brown
1@ Harvard
Choate
1@ Brown
1@ Cornell
2@ Harvard
Loomis
2@ Dartmouth
2@ Harvard
Hotchkiss
2@ Brown
1@ Cornell
2@ Harvard
2@ Princeton
Deerfield
1@ Brown
2@ Harvard
1@ Princeton
Taft
1@ Harvard
1@ Princeton
Pomfret
1@ Brown
1@ Harvard
1@ Yale
Berkshire
1@ Princeton
Wow, how do you know this?? I started this thread because I feel that PARENTS, NOT Coaches are the best judge of what is BEST for their own kids. I think parents along with their kids, have the FIRST-HAND experience with the school and the coaches.
All I get from schools and their coaches is how great they are, every one of them. But what else could I expect? Of course they are going to TOOT their own horn, and I completely understand that.
What I don't understand is how a parent can be so nieve as to make the assumptions they have made on this thread. I will be mores specific in another post.
As for the Prep's. I'll keep my mouth shut. There are too many rumors being discussed here to address although I will say that almost all of them are false and/or inaccurate. If you have questions about these things, you should contact the coaches and ask them directly - they'll tell you at least where they and their school stand on these things.
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TAFT HOCKEY, says their are rumors on this thread that he says are not true. So, TAFT HOCKEY, why don't you tell us the truth then? You're not helping anyone by just insinuating they are false without any substance , all your doing is adding to the rumors.
So as you suggest, ask the coach directly, so I am asking you, the Taft Hockey coach: Which rumors about prep schools are false?
WRITTEN BY TAFT HOCKEY<
The only way to really know is to visit several different schools, as someone has previously suggested, and get a feel if it is the right place. Prep schools are not about fancy buildings as much as they are about the people who make up the community (teachers, staff, and students). They are the ones you have to be around all day long and are what make the experience. You can only judge that in person. There are guides to Prep Schools but they only give statistics and descriptions. The people are what make the place and you have to see if they are “your kind“ of people to be happy and successful there. TAFT HOCKEY
YES, its the ALL the people that count. NOT just the teachers and coaches. Its the KIDS and the PARENTS! The information you get from the KIDS and the PARENTS who have had FIRST_HAND experince GOOD & BAD are your most helpful resource in picking a school.
Its like a restaurant! You don't talk to the Chef and the owner of the restaurant to get an honest opinion. You talk to the CUSTOMERS!!!
With all due respect to Taft Hockey and all other coaches, its the parents and the kids that determine whether or not you have a job and whether or not your school even exists. From the founders to the alumni and trustees, and the current parents, they are responsible for the schools existence.
Good trustees, choose the coaches and the teachers. SOmetimes they do well and sometimes they don't. Parents love their kids more than coaches love them, parents have to believe that and stop depending on coaches to treat their kids as if they were their own. Afterall, for most of them, those dedicated and those who are not, it is still their job not their whole life. We as parents have to be BOLD enough to do what is right for our kids by not making assumptions based on reputation only or just by VISITING the BEAUTIFUL campuses with their WELCOMING staff.
Find out about the day to day happenings, and the only way to do that is to TALK TO OTHER PARENTS and their kids. T
And that is what I have been doing and I have found out alot.
Some of you have responded honestly, without a hidden agenda, but some of you are really threatened by strait forward questions, beating around the bush and making generalities withou ANY substance.
So therefore, Tom Resor at Nobles, Laurie Mutch at Lawrence and Kennedy at Cushing are the only people any of you can vouch for. Oh and the Taft coach seems to be getting some support, although I am skeptical as to the motives since he is part of this discussion.
This is a quick tally from the last 4 years of some of the mentioned prep schools including this years seniors(I dont claim this to be 100% but it is pretty close):
Cushing
3@ Brown
1@ Harvard
Choate
1@ Brown
1@ Cornell
2@ Harvard
Loomis
2@ Dartmouth
2@ Harvard
Hotchkiss
2@ Brown
1@ Cornell
2@ Harvard
2@ Princeton
Deerfield
1@ Brown
2@ Harvard
1@ Princeton
Taft
1@ Harvard
1@ Princeton
Pomfret
1@ Brown
1@ Harvard
1@ Yale
Berkshire
1@ Princeton
I forgot to ask why you left out Nobles? Didn't any of them go to IVYS, or small IVYS?
BKDad
04-01-2006, 10:41 AM
And that is what I have been doing and I have found out alot.
At some point would it be possible to share some of this?
Maybe a public forum might not be the right place.
Radar3535
04-01-2006, 10:48 AM
Wow, how do you know this?? I started this thread because I feel that PARENTS, NOT Coaches are the best judge of what is BEST for their own kids. I think parents along with their kids, have the FIRST-HAND experience with the school and the coaches.
All I get from schools and their coaches is how great they are, every one of them. But what else could I expect? Of course they are going to TOOT their own horn, and I completely understand that.
What I don't understand is how a parent can be so nieve as to make the assumptions they have made on this thread. I will be mores specific in another post.Most of my info came from collegehockeystats.com .The rest is from info obtain during the last 4 years or so.There are some players listed on the rosters that only list their club team(ie...Polar Bears...)but I know what prep some have attended.Some of this years senior info was obtain from an earlier listing in this forum.
Radar3535
04-01-2006, 10:52 AM
I forgot to ask why you left out Nobles? Didn't any of them go to IVYS, or small IVYS?There are 2 reasons.One, Im not familar enough with their players to try to make an accurate list.Many play for Assabet and Nobles might not be listed as their last team .Two, I'm pretty sure they are a day school(as is Greenwich Academy)which might not make them an option unless your whole family is willing to relocate.
Radar3535
04-01-2006, 10:54 AM
I forgot to ask why you left out Nobles? Didn't any of them go to IVYS, or small IVYS?What is a "small IVY"? It is like being pregnant,either you are or you are not.
With regard to the Ivy claims. Ivies give ONLY need based financial aid. In fact, they are prohibited by their own policies from providing ANY aid based on ANY type of merit - be it athletic or if you are the best trumpet player in town. While each school has its own policies on how they read the Parents Financial Statement and packages will differ from school to school, it is rare that a package at one school will be vastly different than another. With that said, I have seen it happen and it leaves you scratching your head. That, however is a very rare occasion and more often than not, the packages are within a few hundred to a few thousand dollars of each other. Also, where many people get confused is the bulk of a financial aid package at an Ivy usually is grant money, or money you don't pay back. This also is the case at Preps and is where some get confused thinking that kids are getting hockey scholarships at Ivies and Preps.
All the Ivy schools use the same baseline AI number. Unless it has changed it last was 172 out of a total 240 score. The three sections were each worth 80 points. Class Rank (or GPA if your school doesn't rank) SAT I's, and SAT II's (or ACT) are the three categories. Only in the absolutely extraordinary case does a school admit someone sub-AI and then only if it is a by a point or two. I don't know of anyone in the past 5 years who has fit that case. With regard to Sarah V., her AI was above the baseline.
Each year each Ivy athletic department is given an AI number that their entire student athlete population must average out to. As a department, they choose how to manage that number - i.e. high priority sports get more leeway and lower numbers than a low priority sport which balances things out.
So to sum it up, no scholarships, no sub-AI's, and Canadians are not subject to lower standards than Americans and there is no stipulation about giving aid to Canadians and not to Americans as I think was mentioned earlier. The only thing I can think of where someone might think Canadians are getting preferential treatment is in the evaluation of their GPA. Most Canadian schools have a passing score of 50 as opposed to the US standard of 60. In evaluating a passing 50 transcript, 10 points are added so an 85 Canadian score is usually translated into a 95 in the AI formula.
Lastly, it is important to keep DI opportunities in perspective. I think there were 147 kids that were freshmen at DI programs this year. Right around half of them were from Canada. That's 70 spots each year from each country. There simply aren't that many spots. Take for instance there are over 100 kids at the 17/18 National Camp each summer. Not all of those kids end up playing DI hockey. Being offered a spot is becoming harder and harder and only the select few are in the position to expect to play DI. This is important for all parents to keep in mind as well as players so their expectations are realistic.
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A bit more insight if you please...I was told that the IVY aid packages were suppose to be simliar, yet a few thousand $ of help might sway a player from one school to another. I was also told that Canadian apps were viewed differently, and that the financial app was not as detailed as those for American born players...making it easier for Canadians to receive on a comparative basis more aid. You can call it whatever you want, grant, merit, scholarship, but if Harvard really wants you they will find a way to get you in...
You should read the book "A is for Admission" (old now but still valuable) by Michele Hernandez, where she describes in detail where the AI came from in the Ivies and why...started as a standard for recruiting football players...I have been reading everything I can to determine the best evaluation process for my kids going forward...
Lastly from what I know of the process that players go through in getting noticed, and it is becoming clear to me now as I read up on it, that 50%-60% of the D1 players are Canadian, in fact there are almost whole teams that are Canadian, like Niagara and Mercyhurst...the Ivies are around 60%, that if things don't change here in the good old USA with girls hockey development, the evaluation process we use in getting our girls to play at the college level might not really matter at all, for they are being beaten out by our neighbors north of the border. Since you refer to the 17/18 USA Hockey development camp, we live in a district where there are many players not chosen due to the district's quotas on players, while girls from other districts, who are not nearly as good, get to go...I have always believed that honesty is the best policy, especially at this level and I am sure you do as a coach also. I am sure that 30-40% of the players who belong at Lake Placid are not there, while others are there just because they live in a weaker district.
The same can be said for the USA Hockey Nationals, which because of the district structure eliminates teams that are far better than some of the teams that are there, and rewards the host organization with a team, no matter how weak it is. It seems to me this only skews the process as teams can advance by playing the weaker teams...We thought about Shattuck for our daughter, but the program is all hockey...all year, over 100 games...if they lose at Nationals it is only because they are burned out, as they have an advantage over all other teams as they practice, live, play and eat and study together...by the way how did they manage to be the only Prep team at Nationals? Has anyone ever noticed that very few of their girls are from Minnesota, and there are virtually no Minnesota girls (the state with the most high school teams and arguably some of the best players) playing at Nationals...How can they call it Nationals if in reality Minnesota is not there...I give Minnesota alot of credit for running their High school hockey throught the state athletic org. like all their other team sports...
I think the reason we are having such a hard time figuring all this our for our kid is that the system seems so flawed, with very little balance...what do you think?
That would be great, with one provision.
Consider the coach-player relationship like the teacher-student relationship. Most parents don't spend time sitting in a classroom watching their kid learn. What they rely upon is consistent communication from the teacher as to how the student is doing. Are they doing their homework adequately? Should they be getting extra help with geometry? And so on. This is done with a combination of conferences, written reports (aka report cards and progress sheets), and often emails these days.
It would be great if the same type of thing could be done with the coaches. Does the child need some extra time working on backward edges in a public skate? Shooting practice? More endurance? While that might be a pain for coaches, who are all volunteers except for prep coaches, in the long run it might work out better. A quick email or a five minute conversation could direct the parents to go in the right direction rather than having to guess and become "experts". If the parents ignore this, it would be the same as them ignoring the communications from the teachers.
A mild disagreement here.
No question that the questions about homework and hockey should be asked, and the communication should happen. But the closer the young person is to graduation from high school, the more the question should be asked by the student and the more the communication should be between the student and the coach.
With regard to the school, there should also be heavy involvement by the guidance or placement department. Especially in the case of prep schools, the placement folks know both the student and the schools well, and often have a much more informed view as to what schools match the student.
Disclaimer: I'm not in this forum often; more often I'm in the D1 forum. My son went to a prep school, to a NESCAC school, and has now graduated. He did not play hockey in college. The one person from prep school that he still keeps in contact with most is his hockey coach (for the first three years, he had a new coach for his senior year :( ).
BKDad
04-01-2006, 11:24 AM
But the closer the young person is to graduation from high school, the more the question should be asked by the student and the more the communication should be between the student and the coach.
Agreed; very good point. I was thinking more along the lines of entering students, since a prep school or club hockey program is chosen earlier rather than later in high school life. But your point is well taken.
What is a "small IVY"? It is like being pregnant,either you are or you are not.Not trying to answer for the poster, but quite often the term "Little/Small Ivy" is used to refer to NESCAC schools, especially Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, etc. NESCAC is sort of like the Ivy League, but the schools are much smaller and are typically Liberal Arts schools as opposed to Universities. Since they're D3, they can't give athletic scholies, but they probably wouldn't even if they could. From an admissions standpoint, they're very much the same; in fact often they accept a smaller percentage of applicants than the real Ivys, and on some measures like average SAT or GPA, they're higher.
Taft Hockey
04-01-2006, 11:45 AM
Contrary to what has been insinuated, I have no motivations for my postings. I hope the information I was able to provide answered some of the questions that had arisen in this thread.
Good day.
BKDad
04-01-2006, 11:56 AM
There is no navigational chart, but I think you will find most people in hockey, be it girls or boys, prep or club, are pretty willing to help people who seek that help out.
I believe you have helped. Thank you very much.
Spending any time around the parents of a so-called "elite" club team is enough to put the fear into most anybody. :o
ref11
04-01-2006, 12:41 PM
TAFT HOCKEY, says their are rumors on this thread that he says are not true. So, TAFT HOCKEY, why don't you tell us the truth then? You're not helping anyone by just insinuating they are false without any substance , all your doing is adding to the rumors.
So as you suggest, ask the coach directly, so I am asking you, the Taft Hockey coach: Which rumors about prep schools are false?
Taft Hockey has been more than helpful with her factual posting of the A1 process, how it works and what the realisic odds of making it to D1 or D3 collegate hockey. Unless we are willing to pay her travel expenses, salary and a 6 month leave of absense as a consultant to the forum, to do a review of all the other prep programs, it is unrealistic to expect her to comment.
The best advice is to go visit the schools yourself. Do the "due dilligence". Question the coachs, when visiting. Visit Taft, Nobles, Pomfret, Cushing and others. Weigh that against your current club / High school program. This forum provides a good dialogue for differing views, but in the end it is about the great education opportunites and life lessons that this great sport provides. :cool:
At some point would it be possible to share some of this?
Maybe a public forum might not be the right place.
BKDad: I think you have been on this thread with me for the past three days. So everything I have learned is here on the thread from page 21 thru page 24. I've tried to include the conversations I had with the parents at some of the last games of the season, where Westminster, Pomfret, Berkshire, Lawrence, Andover, Nobles and Choate parents were present.
I feel THIS public forum is great because so far, everyone except Taft Hockey, has been annonymous. So it should be much easier to be honest and forthcoming with information which will help others.
See what happens when one is not annonymous, i.e. Taft Hockey, he feels he can no longer participate in the discussion when posed direct and specific questions. I completely understand his position as I'm sure we all do.
We refrain from revealing our identities, because most of us want to help or are seeking help from others and we find annonimity has the potential of breeding honesty and deep-insight into topics which can be very difficult to discuss openly, in fear of reprecussions and backlash from those people who have a lot to say about our children's future. These people are just as human as you and me, we should not think otherwise.
The best advice is to go visit the schools yourself. Do the "due dilligence". Question the coachs, when visiting. Visit Taft, Nobles, Pomfret, Cushing and others. Weigh that against your current club / High school program. This forum provides a good dialogue for differing views, but in the end it is about the great education opportunites and life lessons that this great sport provides. :cool:
YES, I agree, except this is step TWO not step One.
Step ONE should be to get information from the customers, then STEP TWO go see for yourself (and your kid of course) and make your own determination as to what is the right fit.
If this is what we do with movies, restaurants, car dealers, doctors, dentists, lawyers etc etc, why in the world would you not reommend that as the PRIMARY STEP in your search for your child's education?
Taft Hockey has been more than helpful with her factual posting of the A1 process, how it works and what the realisic odds of making it to D1 or D3 collegate hockey. Unless we are willing to pay her travel expenses, salary and a 6 month leave of absense as a consultant to the forum, to do a review of all the other prep programs, it is unrealistic to expect her to comment.
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Taft Hockey brought up the subject of "rumors", he opened the door, so I thought it was appropriate to ask him to tell us which comments he thinks are "rumors".
That is all I meant, I am not asking him to review any programs, I am just asking him to substantiate his reference to rumors, just for clarification and to set the record straight since he thinks it is not. BTW, Taft Hockey is a he not a she.
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