Girls Prep Hockey

[ref11]

Thank you for the references to those websites, that is VERY helpful. I wish I could watch the coaches in practice as you suggest. Because I have always picked a club based on the coach's knowledge of the game and his ON-ICE coaching skills. If they have the Off-Ice skill thats icing on the cake, but thats really my job as a parent.

When you send your kid far away to school, the off-ice skills of a coach become more important.

I am very interested in learning how a coach can "get your kid into an Ivy" like ref11 suggests. Can they? I have been told not to expect that in some preps like Berkshire, Taft, and Pomfret. That they used to do that, but not as much any more. They say coaches are tired of parents who want the coach to perform miracles. So does that mean even the deserving ones don't get any help? But do the girls even NEED the coaches help?

Isn't it the college office at the school who has that job? (For those of you that have not read all my posts, please know that I am fully aware of the acceptance rates at the top colleges and Universites in the USA. 10% Harvard to about 30% Cornell)

I don't think it is a wise premise to look for a coach that can "get your (daughter) into an Ivy". Even, as I suggested, if your daughter is an all star on the ice and in the classroom, an Ivy education is far from assured. A number of talented kids choose great D3 programs at Middlebury, Williams and others, because they have great academics. Other choose State schools like U of New Hampshire.

Not sure you can make the Ivy generalization about Taft, Pomfret, Berkshire (or other schools). Go to the D1 resruits post. It shows Brown (Andrea Hunter, Pomfret), Yale (Caroline Murphy, Pomfret), Julie Flynn (Nobles, Princeton). I also know that Jen Siefers (Harvard, Taft, 2yrs ago), Sara Valincourt (sp) (Harvard, Pomfret, Canadian Olympic Team, 1 yr ago) and I'm sure there are others from schools not mentioned. Understand that with 150 (approximate) spots for D1 girls hockey each year, it is a very small group that gets to go to Cornell, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth and Brown. Given the academic hurdle to get in, it is tough to compete against schools like UNH (or other state schools) where the hurdle is not so high. :cool:

[nut_case]

Wow! As a former teacher and coach, as the father of 4 girls who all played at least one sport in college, as a former parent and coach of a club hockey team who talked to quite a few college coaches about players on the team, and as someone who followed the college careers of his daughters, his former players and their friends I find this thread fascinating. It would be a great subject for at least a half or full day seminar at coaching clinics, and it would be useful to allow parents to attend such a seminar. I'm not sure where I would begin here, except to observe that some of the obsevations seem to me to be off the mark. When time permits I hope to show up with a few thoughts which may or may not be useful.

[hockeyyfan]

Do you feel that is true about all preps? Can you tell me which schools you think are "all about education" and why you think that? Can it be possible that they are ALL in this category? Can you be more specific?

We visited Williston and Tabor but spoke with a couple others. Ended up at Williston but 95% of the discussion was about academics. We didn't even see the rink until the fall when she got there, but my daughter made her decision based on the dean she met and talking to the coach who stressed academics.....she ended up a Cum Laude society inductee with the coach as her academic advisor).

For example, and correct me if I am wrong, because I am new at this, I have been told that Choate is about education but Cushing is not. Although I also heard that the Cushing coach does not allow his girls to play club hockey during the regular prep season. I know that academically they are miles apart.

I would call the Cushing coach and ask. My impression, but I haven't researched it, is that doesn't make sense and is contrary to what I'd heard about Cushing. At most there are 22-24 girls on a varsity roster versus 600-1000 total kids at a prep school....they make their living on academics.


I hear parents purport that they have chosen a school because of "education", but then the conversation always switches to hockey, hockey, hockey.

That's because none of us are smart enough to argue Chemistry or quantum physics with our kids after a couple years there. Trust your kid's gut on where to go.

What people need to understand is if you want to play D3 hockey at a good school and in a good program...it's up to you to perform athletically and academically..and that means working out and lifting and running all summer long.

If you want to play D1 for money you also have to be extremely gifted athletically, have developed those gifts and work the equivalent of a 40+ hr a week job and maintain your academics and pretty much give up 85% of the rest of your life for that time and it's great for the few who want to do that. Unless you are a parent who played intercollegiate sports or had another child do it you really have NO idea what it takes at the D1 level, or the D3 level for that matter. My daughter loves the game and is having a ball, but because she's made the choices and she's followed through. It's her deal, not mine. I got to that point the hard way but glad I did.

[vas]

Go to the D1 resruits post. It shows Brown (Andrea Hunter, Pomfret), Yale (Caroline Murphy, Pomfret), Julie Flynn (Nobles, Princeton). I also know that Jen Siefers (Harvard, Taft, 2yrs ago), Sara Valincourt (sp) (Harvard, Pomfret, Canadian Olympic Team, 1 yr ago) and I'm sure there are others from schools not mentioned. :cool:

Yes, I have been researching, that is why I have been on this forum for the past two days! I saw that, so since I have a tendency to be very direct and not beat around the bush, I asked some Pomfret parents what they thought about their coaches role in where their daughters got in. I did attend some of the last games of the season and some of the play-off games for the NE finals.

And I was shocked to hear that although the school was a great experience for their daughters, they did nothing to help their girls get in. In fact it was the college coaches who contacted the HS coaches not the other way around.

Sarah V is an OUTSTANDING hockey player, and CANADIAN, so she was offered $$$$ and subject to a lower AI (I don't know if she needed it) than Americans plus EVERY SCHOOL wanted her, SHE NEEDED NOTHING from POMFRET.

As far as Berkshire, parents said the girls complained that the coach over there did not lift a finger to help those girls get in to college. But, they raved about EVERY OTHER aspect of the school.

[Skate79]

[/I]

Yes, I have been researching, that is why I have been on this forum for the past two days! I saw that, so since I have a tendency to be very direct and not beat around the bush, I asked some Pomfret parents what they thought about their coaches role in where their daughters got in. I did attend some of the last games of the season and some of the play-off games for the NE finals.

And I was shocked to hear that although the school was a great experience for their daughters, they did nothing to help their girls get in. In fact it was the college coaches who contacted the HS coaches not the other way around.

Sarah V is an OUTSTANDING hockey player, and CANADIAN, so she was offered $$$$ and subject to a lower AI (I don't know if she needed it) than Americans plus EVERY SCHOOL wanted her, SHE NEEDED NOTHING from POMFRET.

As far as Berkshire, parents said the girls complained that the coach over there did not lift a finger to help those girls get in to college. But, they raved about EVERY OTHER aspect of the school.

You must qualify what you mean regarding dollars and the AI when discussing Sarah Vaillancourt. I can't believe Harvard lowered their AI requirements for Sarah because she is Canadian. Admissions just doesn't act that way for any applicant. Harvard does give financial aid but they don't make decisions as to the dollars based on whether or not the applicant happens to be a blue chip hockey player. Sorry, it doesn't work that way at Harvard. I know because I have recently had a family member who is an athlete apply and we went through the whole process including talking to the coaches about the AI.

[nut_case]

The process regarding this particular Harvard player may not be as black and white as some think. It is absolutely true that no Ivy school gives true scholarships to any kid,regardless of their background, nationality,etc.(the same is true for places such as Union, the NESCAC schools, etc.). It is also true that in any particular case(for example, the case of a spectacularly talented hockey player who might have true financial need) the difference between a scholarship and financial aid may sometimes seem murky at best. Also, don't think for a minute that many of these schools do not try hard to find ways to get talented athletes who might be below the usual academic standards admitted. By the way, I have no knowledge of the particular Harvard player's academic profile when she was applying to colleges.

[MetMary]

I do not know of any prep school coach not letting their players play club teams. I find it hard to believe that Kennedy would not let the Cushing kids play club since he owns the Wizards who competed in the state competion to go to the nationals. Also if I remember correctly he coached the Chelmsford 15 or 16 yr olds at the nationals a couple of years ago. If you look at the rosters of Assabet, Chelmsford, Ct Polar Bears, Ct Stars, Albany they are loaded with prep players.

No prep school or prep school coach can guarantee you a spot at an ivy league school. The schools that most consider on the lower end academically (Cushing and Lawrence) both have sent players to ivy league schools within the last couple of years. Remember the school has to be a fit to each player and then it is up to the player to get the most out of the school. A school like Choate, Andover or Exeter are much larger (600 -1000 or more students) vs. the Cushing and Lawrence with only about 400 students.

[nut_case]

Re: the possibility that a prep coach "did nothing to get a player in"- I find a comment to this effect extremely hard to believe, and I am guessing that this type of comment would come from a player or parent who is unhappy about some part or all of the hockey experience, or the college search results. The process of getting in to college as a hockey player is really not that complicated. The universe of players is not that large to begin with, and, in the case of the D1 and D3 schools which have rigorous academic standards, the universe is even smaller. It is also not that difficult for a college coach to get a reasonably good idea about a particular kid who plays for a prep school team such as Berkshire, Loomis,etc., or for a club team.(Obviously the analysis is different where geography is a factor.) If the overall process of most of these cases were to be examined in detail I suspect that one would find plenty of cases in which a college coach(or assistant) had some familiarity with a particular player(often because the player had indicated an interest in the school, which is, most often, the way this process should work), and that the college coach then might have followed up with a frank discussion with the prep school coach to fill in any gaps regarding the particular player's potential. What many parents often fail to realize is that their child may not be quite as talented as she or they think she is, and that they are aiming for the wrong schools. I have seen plenty of parents react negatively to the idea that their daughter might be best served by applying to a D3 school with a decent hockey program rather than to Middlebury or Williams or a D1 school(none of whom are interested in the kid as a hockey player). The idea that girl's hockey is the path to a free education(sometimes at an Ivy League school) is still a fairly recent phenomenon. Also, while most of the prep schools which have been mentioned may have strong hockey programs, few if any of them would hold themselves out as offering hockey as the key to a child's existence, or to the child's college acceptance process. By the way, the idea that parents who watch club teams practice now often seem to be the experts on all aspects of coaching is also a fairly recent phenomenon(following the slightly older and similar trend related to club soccer teams). I find those trends particularly fascinating in the U.S., where many of the experts never played either sport. I personally believe kids and coaches would generally be better served if parents were prohibited from attending practices, although that is obviously not practical for a club team.

[BKDad]

I personally believe kids and coaches would generally be better served if parents were prohibited from attending practices, although that is obviously not practical for a club team.
That would be great, with one provision.

Consider the coach-player relationship like the teacher-student relationship. Most parents don't spend time sitting in a classroom watching their kid learn. What they rely upon is consistent communication from the teacher as to how the student is doing. Are they doing their homework adequately? Should they be getting extra help with geometry? And so on. This is done with a combination of conferences, written reports (aka report cards and progress sheets), and often emails these days.

It would be great if the same type of thing could be done with the coaches. Does the child need some extra time working on backward edges in a public skate? Shooting practice? More endurance? While that might be a pain for coaches, who are all volunteers except for prep coaches, in the long run it might work out better. A quick email or a five minute conversation could direct the parents to go in the right direction rather than having to guess and become "experts". If the parents ignore this, it would be the same as them ignoring the communications from the teachers.

[vas]

You must qualify what you mean regarding dollars and the AI when discussing Sarah Vaillancourt. I can't believe Harvard lowered their AI requirements for Sarah because she is Canadian. Admissions just doesn't act that way for any applicant. Harvard does give financial aid but they don't make decisions as to the dollars based on whether or not the applicant happens to be a blue chip hockey player. Sorry, it doesn't work that way at Harvard. I know because I have recently had a family member who is an athlete apply and we went through the whole process including talking to the coaches about the AI.

I said that CANADIANS are offered GRANT $$$$ not loans. Although they could get both. Harvard and other schools do not require Canadians to submit a financial statement. The money they get is niether based on need nor academics. Harvard and ALL Ivies lower their AI standard for CANADIANS. I do not know if they lowered it for Sarah V. If your family member is American, then none of this applies to her/him.

That is the reality.

[vas]

I do not know of any prep school coach not letting their players play club teams. I find it hard to believe that Kennedy would not let the Cushing kids play club since he owns the Wizards who competed in the state competion to go to the nationals. Also if I remember correctly he coached the Chelmsford 15 or 16 yr olds at the nationals a couple of years ago. If you look at the rosters of Assabet, Chelmsford, Ct Polar Bears, Ct Stars, Albany they are loaded with prep players.

No prep school or prep school coach can guarantee you a spot at an ivy league school. The schools that most consider on the lower end academically (Cushing and Lawrence) both have sent players to ivy league schools within the last couple of years. Remember the school has to be a fit to each player and then it is up to the player to get the most out of the school. A school like Choate, Andover or Exeter are much larger (600 -1000 or more students) vs. the Cushing and Lawrence with only about 400 students.
Well, you'd be smart to believe it because it has been true now for at least two years. Remember, I'm the one doing the recent research on prep schools since my kid is not in prep school yet. So I called and asked, and that is what the school told me.

You are right, not only can't a high school coach guarantee you a spot at an Ivy, but EITHER CAN THE IVY COACH that may be recruiting your kid. Its up to the admissions committee.

I personally know of one girl who was guaranteed by the Dartmouth coach and another by the Princeton coach. You can imagine "the ride home" when they were rejected by admissions. But it wasn't so bad the first one went to Brown and the other to Dartmouth

[Radar3535]

You must qualify what you mean regarding dollars and the AI when discussing Sarah Vaillancourt. I can't believe Harvard lowered their AI requirements for Sarah because she is Canadian. Admissions just doesn't act that way for any applicant. Harvard does give financial aid but they don't make decisions as to the dollars based on whether or not the applicant happens to be a blue chip hockey player. Sorry, it doesn't work that way at Harvard. I know because I have recently had a family member who is an athlete apply and we went through the whole process including talking to the coaches about the AI.You live in a dream world if you believe what you just wrote.Their were many girls who played with Sarah when she was at prep school.The scores that she told people she got would have made it very hard for her to get into MOST american schools let alone an Ivy.

[BKDad]

I learned today that at Choate, kids going to the National Tournament cannot get an excused abscence and are put on what they call "restriction". So it seems Choate does not support Hockey outside of its program for their students. Any comments on that?
Here is the pertinent policy for Choate:

http://choate.edu/students/classday_attendanceandabsen.asp

It sure sounds like USAHockey Nationals isn't considered an excusable absence if the girls are being put on "restriction."

For comparison, the Cushing policy is here:

http://www.cushing.org/pdf/2005-2006-Community-Handbook.pdf

They have a specific policy outlining such things as outside teams; it looks like an activity like the USAHockey Nationals would not be possible, since if the team does well a student would be gone for more than five days (you gotta travel some time.)

Perhaps there is more flexibility than what is written, since there sure are a lot of kids from Choate, Pomfret, Deerfield, and a few others out in Buffalo right now.

[Taft Hockey]

just like nut case, I have been fascinated by what has been said in this thread. I usually don't chime in unless I feel the need to clear a few things up.

I am the Taft coach and also was an assistant coach at Brown so I have a pretty good grasp on the topics being discussed.

With regard to the Ivy claims. Ivies give ONLY need based financial aid. In fact, they are prohibited by their own policies from providing ANY aid based on ANY type of merit - be it athletic or if you are the best trumpet player in town. While each school has its own policies on how they read the Parents Financial Statement and packages will differ from school to school, it is rare that a package at one school will be vastly different than another. With that said, I have seen it happen and it leaves you scratching your head. That, however is a very rare occasion and more often than not, the packages are within a few hundred to a few thousand dollars of each other. Also, where many people get confused is the bulk of a financial aid package at an Ivy usually is grant money, or money you don't pay back. This also is the case at Preps and is where some get confused thinking that kids are getting hockey scholarships at Ivies and Preps.

All the Ivy schools use the same baseline AI number. Unless it has changed it last was 172 out of a total 240 score. The three sections were each worth 80 points. Class Rank (or GPA if your school doesn't rank) SAT I's, and SAT II's (or ACT) are the three categories. Only in the absolutely extraordinary case does a school admit someone sub-AI and then only if it is a by a point or two. I don't know of anyone in the past 5 years who has fit that case. With regard to Sarah V., her AI was above the baseline.

Each year each Ivy athletic department is given an AI number that their entire student athlete population must average out to. As a department, they choose how to manage that number - i.e. high priority sports get more leeway and lower numbers than a low priority sport which balances things out.

So to sum it up, no scholarships, no sub-AI's, and Canadians are not subject to lower standards than Americans and there is no stipulation about giving aid to Canadians and not to Americans as I think was mentioned earlier. The only thing I can think of where someone might think Canadians are getting preferential treatment is in the evaluation of their GPA. Most Canadian schools have a passing score of 50 as opposed to the US standard of 60. In evaluating a passing 50 transcript, 10 points are added so an 85 Canadian score is usually translated into a 95 in the AI formula.

As for the Prep's. I'll keep my mouth shut. There are too many rumors being discussed here to address although I will say that almost all of them are false and/or inaccurate. If you have questions about these things, you should contact the coaches and ask them directly - they'll tell you at least where they and their school stand on these things.

Lastly, it is important to keep DI opportunities in perspective. I think there were 147 kids that were freshmen at DI programs this year. Right around half of them were from Canada. That's 70 spots each year from each country. There simply aren't that many spots. Take for instance there are over 100 kids at the 17/18 National Camp each summer. Not all of those kids end up playing DI hockey. Being offered a spot is becoming harder and harder and only the select few are in the position to expect to play DI. This is important for all parents to keep in mind as well as players so their expectations are realistic.

I hope this helps in clearing some of the questions up.

[Hux]

Thanks coach, I am sure that will help get things straightened out.

[ref11]

As for the Prep's. I'll keep my mouth shut. There are too many rumors being discussed here to address although I will say that almost all of them are false and/or inaccurate. If you have questions about these things, you should contact the coaches and ask them directly - they'll tell you at least where they and their school stand on these things.

I hope this helps in clearing some of the questions up.

"Regarding false / inaccurate" is IMO rooted in parents having unrealistic expectations. 150ish D1 slots per year. Do the math. Rarely do these come from the prep / club coachs (IMO).

I did sneek in and and see one game in Watertown when business took me to Connecticut from Mass this winter. Players looking for a great education and program should consider Taft and other fine prep schools to find the right fit, academically, socially, and athletically.

Thanks for a great post! :cool:

[BKDad]

I hope this helps in clearing some of the questions up.
Thanks for the well informed posting.

Is there some place where there is any kind of chart to navigate through these waters? I'm thinking more about the prep school thing as well as hockey for prep/high school girls rather than about college. (There's books that discuss such things as Ivy AI in detail.) As best I can tell, at least so far, any girl who lives outside of Minnesota and doesn't go to a prep school is heading down a dead end. Maybe not academically, but for hockey that seems to be the reasoning. Is this just people (aka parents) trying to justify their choice? Or is it real?

[Gamer]

'Taft Hockey'... as usual right on! With his help, my grade 12 daughter focused on D3 vs D1. 'Taft Hockey' also assisted in landing her a spot at a great NESCAC school (even though she was not a Taft student). Thanks again 'Taft Hockey'. Enjoy summer in Vt.

[Hux]

Thanks for the well informed posting.

Is there some place where there is any kind of chart to navigate through these waters? I'm thinking more about the prep school thing as well as hockey for prep/high school girls rather than about college. (There's books that discuss such things as Ivy AI in detail.) As best I can tell, at least so far, any girl who lives outside of Minnesota and doesn't go to a prep school is heading down a dead end. Maybe not academically, but for hockey that seems to be the reasoning. Is this just people (aka parents) trying to justify their choice? Or is it real?


It just seems that way if you are from around New England. However the D1 schools are loaded with girls that play just for club teams like Honeybaked, Syracuse, Princeton, Cal Selects, Wisconsin etc. I am sure that if you were a talented player on Assabet, or Polar Bears or another highly regarded club team and were an honors student in a public/parochial school in New England you would have as good a shot as those girls at making the next step up.

And then there are always the Sanborns (Northeastern), Martins (Providence), Mirasolos and Gillises (BC), Busas and Hansens (UNH) etc. that made it despite playing public high school hockey in the Bay State.

[Radar3535]

Thank you for the references to those websites, that is VERY helpful. I wish I could watch the coaches in practice as you suggest. Because I have always picked a club based on the coach's knowledge of the game and his ON-ICE coaching skills. If they have the Off-Ice skill thats icing on the cake, but thats really my job as a parent.

When you send your kid far away to school, the off-ice skills of a coach become more important.

I am very interested in learning how a coach can "get your kid into an Ivy" like ref11 suggests. Can they? I have been told not to expect that in some preps like Berkshire, Taft, and Pomfret. That they used to do that, but not as much any more. They say coaches are tired of parents who want the coach to perform miracles. So does that mean even the deserving ones don't get any help? But do the girls even NEED the coaches help?

Isn't it the college office at the school who has that job? (For those of you that have not read all my posts, please know that I am fully aware of the acceptance rates at the top colleges and Universites in the USA. 10% Harvard to about 30% Cornell)This is a quick tally from the last 4 years of some of the mentioned prep schools including this years seniors(I dont claim this to be 100% but it is pretty close):
Cushing
3@ Brown
1@ Harvard
Choate
1@ Brown
1@ Cornell
2@ Harvard
Loomis
2@ Dartmouth
2@ Harvard
Hotchkiss
2@ Brown
1@ Cornell
2@ Harvard
2@ Princeton
Deerfield
1@ Brown
2@ Harvard
1@ Princeton
Taft
1@ Harvard
1@ Princeton
Pomfret
1@ Brown
1@ Harvard
1@ Yale
Berkshire
1@ Princeton