Petition against DivIII changes

[miker]

Originally posted by RPIRED
This pretty much covers anything not in the release, with the exception of the absence of Oneonta, which I'm not at liberty to talk about.

I wrote to one of the sportwriters at the Oneonta Daily Star to find out a little more info. Apparently, Oneonta basically said if it happens, it happens. It said it will abide by whatever the NCAA says.

[vicb]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
How about a devil's advocate point of view?........ RPI, Clarkson & St. Lawrence haven't faired any better lately with their scholarships in the ECAC compared to the non scholarship schools. Maybe it's much ado about nothing. ...

So, let me get this straight, Clarkson has been giving scholarships for as long as I can remember. Since the inception of ECAC play in 1961-62, Clarkson, in 42 years has a total of TWO LOSING SEASONS in ECAC play, 1973-74 and last year. SLU without scholarships over that same period (till 1998 when they began with scholarships again) has had 16 years of losing. And you are asking what's the big deal :confused: ???

[Ralph Baer]

Article in the RPI student newspaper about the recent meeting: http://www.poly.rpi.edu/article_view.php3?view=2389&part=1. Also a Troy Record article (thanks, Nick) http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~markhn/hockey/record/030909.html .

[Ralph Baer]

The following message was posted by Pete Pedone, RPI Alumni Coordinator on the RPI Sports list:

The question was asked, “Is the Alumni Association getting involved in this?” My response is MOST DEFINITELY.



The Office of Alumni Relations and the Rensselaer Alumni Association (RAA) have sent the details of this proposal to 30,000 alumni and asked each and every one of them to respond to Myles Brand ’64. The RAA will be drafting a resolution to be sent to Dr. Brand supporting Dr. Jackson and Rensselaer’s stance on this proposal. We are sending newsletters to our regional chapters with this information included, and the information is on the Alumni web page, along with an e-mail address for Dr. Brand. There will be a postcard in the September issue of the Rensselaer magazine that alumni can remove and mail to Dr. Brand, to show their interest in and concern for defeating this proposal.



So yes, the RAA is certainly involved!!



Peter

[bigwhistle]

Seems as though I struck a nerve. But the one thread that keeps cropping up in all the responses is the past. If one were totally objective and looked at recent history as opposed to ancient history you would have to agree that the scholarships unto themselves do not guarantee success. If that were the case, RPI, Clarkson and St. Lawrence would be competing for a national title every year. Fact is, recent years have been lean years for these schools with their scholarships. And what's the outlook for this season? It will probably be Harvard, Cornell and either Yale or Dartmouth in the top three spots. Where's the justification for scholarships except the storied tradition? As I said, my reason to defeat this proposal is to allow the affected institutions to follow their own course and make their own decisions within the previously granted exceptions. I think that over the past several years there has been such a dramatic shift in power that the "elite" teams will continue to dominate regardless of whether or not RPI, Clarkson and St. Lawrence give scholarships. And for some curious reason which I cannot understand, it appears Colorado College is the exception (must be the beauty of the place and the Rockies). They seem to be able to compete with the "big boys" year after year. As the season unfolds and the national rankings come out, my guess is that there will be only 2 ECAC teams ranked in the top 15--maybe 3. I would also suggest that the 3 affected schools in the ECAC will not be among the nationally ranked teams.

[Ralph Baer]

Bigwhistle,
With scholarships there is hope for national rankings for these schools, without there isn't. It's that simple. I agree that none of the three ECAC schools will be nationally ranked this season, but IMO all have bottomed out and are on the upswing. Will RPI ever be national champs again? -- I am still looking forward to 2016 when we're due if the proposal isn't passed and the asteroid doesn't hit. :)

[miker]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
If one were totally objective and looked at recent history as opposed to ancient history you would have to agree that the scholarships unto themselves do not guarantee success. And what's the outlook for this season?

This really touches a nerve in the nether regions!
That is the reasoning to remove the scholarships???:rolleyes:
Clarkson has had 3 rough years (still better than Union) in the last 5. Prior to this, they were in the NCAA's 9 out of the 10 years. The last 12 years Clarkson has the highest average finish, they have had RS one finish of 7th, 4th, 3rd, 5x they finished 2nd, and 4x finished 1st. This is struggling? No one has said scholarships guarantee a competitive team, but the lack of scholarships will guarantee a slow death.

Where's the justification for scholarships except the storied tradition And for some curious reason which I cannot understand, it appears Colorado College is the exception (must be the beauty of the place and the Rockies).
Maybe Colorado College is a little easier to recruit for because of the conference, location, and it is a little easier academically...maybe just because they have had better recruiting coaches.
One other (not the only!) justification for scholarships is that it allows schools to provide funding for a diverse group of students that also excel academically. See my previous comments regarding financial aid.
I do not like to group people, but most times the best students come from the most financially stable families. You will not recruit the best students that have a multitude of choices without scholarships.

As the season unfolds and the national rankings come out, my guess is that there will be only 2 ECAC teams ranked in the top 15--maybe 3. I would also suggest that the 3 affected schools in the ECAC will not be among the nationally ranked teams.
No one has stated that scholarships guarantee success, only that (edit for bigfish) their lack guarantees mediocrity or worse. According to your logic, since scholarships do not provide this success, they should stop giving them.:confused:
:confused: starting to get :mad:


btw...here is the average finish in the ECAC the last 12 years
2.3 Clarkson
3.9 Harvard
5.1 Rensselaer
5.3 Cornell
5.9 St. Lawrence

Edit: Don't forget to have your friends sign the petition;)
http://www.petitiononline.com/NCAAD3/petition.html

[bigfish]

Originally posted by MikeR
No one has stated that scholarships guarantee success, only that they guarantee mediocrity or worse.

what refreshing honesty, Mike:D

[Ralph Baer]

Originally posted by bigfish
what refreshing honesty, Mike:D I think that you know what Mike really meant to write: No one has stated that scholarships guarantee success, only that their lack guarantees mediocrity or worse.

[miker]

My reading comprehension skills are as good as my spelling...thanks Ralph, just adding credence to your theory that most recruited student-athletes are more intelligent than the general population.;)

Must have been the nerve that bigwhistle hit.

[bigwhistle]

I was going to respond and point out the faux pas but in the heat of the argument I understood what you meant. I think we've beaten this horse enough. Let's hope for a just outcome regardless of the reasoning.

[miker]

Thanks for the slack bigwhistle, my fingers were going faster than my brain:o

I was thinking the same- about the dead horse that is....almost borrowed the picture from the "under-22.." thread in D3.

[bigfish]

Originally posted by MikeR
Thanks for the slack bigwhistle, my fingers were going faster than my brain:o



a straight line if I ever saw one, but I'll resist;)

[miker]

Originally posted by bigfish
a straight line if I ever saw one, but I'll resist;)

I know;) ...that's why I wrote it, this board is no fun without some humor. Are you giving P&G driving lessons?

Bigwhistle,
Any response to the replies?

[bigfish]

Originally posted by MikeR
Are you giving P&G driving lessons?



no traffic in Horseheads, why does he need lessons?
Actually, I don't want to get in the car with my own 16 year old, no way I'd get into one with P&G....

[bigwhistle]

MikeR. Na! It's time to let sleeping dogs lie. By the way, I note you're from Atlanta. I do business in Atlanta and get down there once in a while. I played golf no too long ago at the Capital City Club. Nice place. Not much college hockey though. Years ago when I lived in Nashville ('77-'79) aside from youth hockey, the only hockey we had down there was the Vanderbilt club team which was made up mostly of ex Army players stationed at Fort Campbell KY. Although we could drive down to Atlanta to see the Flames. Do you get to see many ECAC games via the internet or cable? Or do you just listen to the radio internet links?

[miker]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
MikeR. Na! It's time to let sleeping dogs lie

Understood. Hopefully this will be defeated, and I can continue to enjoy the seasons to come.

CC Club is nice, don't they also have a Capital City in Alpharetta? Atlanta isn't too bad for a northern person - other than the heat, traffic, and lack of college hockey. When travelling, I get to catch a couple of games at Cheel (company's HQ is in Rochester, and usually a game at Yale or Brown (lived in CT and RI for quite a while). During the season, a game will be on one of the FoxSports channels every week (typically Hockey East, CCHA, or WCHA). I'm still waiting for the ECAC teams to schedule UAH to watch a game locally. The ECHL has a team in Columbus, south of Atlanta, and of course there is the Thrashers.

I've been here two years, and looking forward to a transfer!

[miker]

Originally posted by westerburg
Try these:
http://www.thesabre.com/message_board/lacrosse/
http://forums.laxpower.com/list.php?f=1
http://www.brine.com/brinebb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=1

A startling amount of misinformation on there - but that's all I could find.


Looks like the lax people have been just as interested in this proposal as we have...mainly on laxpower...

Edit: here's a lacrosse equivalent of Adam's article
Tinkering with Tradition (http://www.e-lacrosse.com/2003/spin/23.html)

[Ralph Baer]

MikeR,
I have just spent about an hour going through Laxpower looking at relevant threads. I am getting all riled up again. Bigfish better not show up here again in the near future. :D

[miker]

Sorry Ralph - should have warned you, but that is my tendency - stir the pot up and let others comment first. I can relate to the feeling of aggravation and frustration. October or January is a loooooong ways away.
Take Bigfish with a big beer, he does it to get people to debate....today excluded, notice he hasn't been around that much lately.

I think he secretly signed the petition.:D