Petition against DivIII changes

[bigfish]

Originally posted by Ralph Baer
I work for the Federal Gov't, and I have that understanding. Everything I write connected with my work (at least the part that isn't classified) is in the public domain. OTOH, I might have asked for permission, but it probably isn't necessary.

It does not seem to me to be the same situation, Ralph. There are obviously different constraints and obligations for public employees.

[Rolevio]

Originally posted by bigfish
It does not seem to me to be the same situation, Ralph. There are obviously different constraints and obligations for public employees.

I work for a private firm and most everything I write or produce I expect to be available to the public. Most of it required to be in the public domain.

[bigfish]

Originally posted by Rolevio
I work for a private firm and most everything I write or produce I expect to be available to the public. Most of it required to be in the public domain.
not to be a nitpicker, but are you saying that your answer would be yes to the question I asked RSTUTHILL?

I am not really trying to fault the poster who put up the partial responses, though it is not something I myself would do. I just have a hard time believing the AD would want to say 'publicly' that he thinks votes are "in the pocket" whether that is in fact true or not. Thus I think he probably expected it was private correspondence.

[Red Cloud]

Originally posted by d3follower
But when your case consists primarily of ad hominem and emotional attacks against anyone who questions the appropriateness of D3 institutions granting athletic scholarships, you have much ground to cover if you hope to make your case . . Quoi?

This was the response to *facts* presented by the opposition to this proposal, namely, by yourself and one bigfish. Ad hominem attacks? Pot. Kettle. Black.

By the way, I still have yet to hear of one D-III school who benefits from the proposal.

[RSTuthill]

Bigfish, I understand your point. But I think that if I get a letter from the public, I have to answer in a manner assuming it will be made public (if I answer at all). Unless of course there was some other prior understanding.

I do not think that posting the responses in question was an ethical breach.

[bigfish]

New York Attorney General Elliott Spitzer announced an investigation into an alleged charity, the "bigfish fund" and the organization's founder, sole trustee, and CEO, one RPIRED.

Said Spitzer "Although this organization has taken in funds from concerned citizens in excess of $500,000 in a very short time, their reports to the state indicate $499,999.95 in administrative expenses. We consider this a serious matter and will devote the full resources of this office to determining if fraud has occurred. Aside from the extraordinary expenses they allege,our concern is that citizens may have been deliberately misled and believed they were donating to the "bigfish fan club", a well established organization with over 7,000 members. Rest assured that justice will be served."

RPIRED could not be reached for comment. A spokesperson said that he was test driving a Lamborghini and had several appointments to view real estate. The spokesperson noted that as RPI has a D1 hockey team with a long and storied tradition, RPIRED rejects the notion that New York State can tell him what to do. He further noted that reports that RPIRED had failed Logic 101 were "categorically false", and that RPIRED has not asked RPI for special accomodations under the ADA because he was "humor impaired." His final comment was "Spitzer should be investigating the Middlebury ski team. "

[Sejast]

Originally posted by Ralph Baer
Agreed. I wonder what kind of alumni data bases RPI has. I really should write to Pete Pedone when I return to DC if no one else has tried this. There should be lists of people who attend the satellite broadcasts, but I don't recall if they asked for email addresses. At a minimum the site coordinators should be contacted,


The alumni database is (unfortunately) spotty at best. My GF and I started a Pep Band alumni association at the start of the year, and at the time the alumni house only had 100 something people and e-mail addresses for 43 people who were listed as former members (including alums from as far back as 196x - when it wasn't a seperate pep band). Even with some help from the student union to recreate the member ship for the last 25 years or so, they only had e-mails for a fraction of those people. (A note for those who might not know - Peter Pedone is one of the most helpful people in the alumni house, and any lack of information is far from his fault - he's been an incredible help and resource for this project).

There is that new monthly(?) e-mail that gets sent to all the alumni. If Peter could get the petition listed in that e-mail it would be huge.

[GB Puck Fan]

"By the way, I still have yet to hear of one D-III school who benefits from the proposal."

How about....

If Division 3 gets 4 more schools playing hockey - not to mention schools of this caliber and tradition - it only enhances the stature of D3 hockey. Plus more schools could eventually mean more playoff berths available.

OK, I don't believe it either. Just trying to think of something...

Seriously, though - stop looking for a quantifiable benefit. I think it's a philosophical thing and that's all there is to it.

[Red Cloud]

Originally posted by GB Puck Fan
Seriously, though - stop looking for a quantifiable benefit. I think it's a philosophical thing and that's all there is to it. I'm not looking for one... I know there aren't any. But the proponents of the idea should be trying to present one if they want their position to make sense. Even philosophical reasons need to have some sort of tangible goal or benefit.

[Rolevio]

Originally posted by bigfish
I am not really trying to fault the poster who put up the partial responses, though it is not something I myself would do. I just have a hard time believing the AD would want to say 'publicly' that he thinks votes are "in the pocket" whether that is in fact true or not. Thus I think he probably expected it was private correspondence.

It would be absolutely foolish of the AD to think it was a private correspondence. Anyone motivated enough to write a letter to the Athletic Director and President of the school at the very least is going to discuss the proposal with fellow fans, friends, or alumni. To think a motivated fan would keep a response from the AD of his alma mater a secret is just ignorant. Maybe most wouldn't post it word for word on a public forum, but at least would share it with the people he initially discussed the proposal with and from there it would be spread by word of mouth.

[bigfish]

Originally posted by Rolevio
It would be absolutely foolish of the AD to think it was a private correspondence. Anyone motivated enough to write a letter to the Athletic Director and President of the school at the very least is going to discuss the proposal with fellow fans, friends, or alumni. To think a motivated fan would keep a response from the AD of his alma mater a secret is just ignorant. Maybe most wouldn't post it word for word on a public forum, but at least would share it with the people he initially discussed the proposal with and from there it would be spread by word of mouth.

not sure who the "just ignorant" is directed at, but no matter. My opinion differs from yours.


I know, I know. You have the "facts"....

[Rolevio]

Did I ever claim to know the facts? No. I kjust merely said to assume that a motivated person wouldn't discuss the issue on his mind with others would be ignorant.

[Muskieman]

I just posted the following on SkatingSaints.com and on the Clarkson RoundTable, and wanted to add it here:


The Petition as of the start of this post now has 5,082 signatures. I've read every single one and the comment made by #4853, a CC alumunus and doctor, really says it all. I haven't had a good night's sleep since hearing about this ridiculous proposal.

Regarding the proposal itself, the best analogy I can make is the stupid/fairly recent New York State rule now requiring all students to take and pass a Regents curriculum in order to graduate from HS. A member of a third-generation family of educators, we've had many a family discussion about this ludicrous HS requirement. Bottom line is that some HS students, no matter how hard they might try, do not have the ability to pass Regents exams (i.e., they can not effectively compete). The same thing applies here in that schools like SLU and Clarkson won't be able to effectively compete without scholarships, no matter how hard they try. Letters and/or e-mails, if any, I individually send out will include the aforementioned analogy.

If this thing passes, it will be a sad day for collegiate athletics and will be the day that makes me more angry than any other day in my not-so-short life.

Brian

Muskieman (muskieman@skatingsaints.com)

SLU 76, from: Johnstown, NY

[bigfish]

Originally posted by Rolevio
Did I ever claim to know the facts? No. I kjust merely said to assume that a motivated person wouldn't discuss the issue on his mind with others would be ignorant.
who I am to dispute your accumulated wisdom?

[PSUChamps2001]

Originally posted by RPIRED
Quoi?



By the way, I still have yet to hear of one D-III school who benefits from the proposal.

A. Elmira- If either or all these schools join the ECAC-West Conference if will give the ECAC-West a chance to gain an auto-bid into the NCAA's. Thus giving Elmira an extra recruiting tool, which will bring in (hopefully) better players, which could lead to more wins, which could lead to National Titles, which could lead to more fans, which leads to more $$$.

B. Manhattanville- See A, but change Elmira to Manhattanville.

C. RIT- See A but change Elmira to RIT

D. Utica- See A but change Elmira to Utica

E. Hobart- See A, but change Elmira to Hobart (and add "new rink" with more$$$$.

F. Neumann- see A, but change Elmira to Neumann.

G. Plattsburgh- Use to have games against SLU, RPI, Clarkson. Being only an hour away could draw in some big numbers of fans...making more $$$$.

H. Potsdam- The Bears have a new coach, and will be able to use games against Clarkson-SLU as recruiting tools. What team wouldn’t want to play at a rink like Cheel? (Minus Middlebury and Norwich)

I. Oswego- Could be in the same conference as SLU-Clarkson-RPI. Great recruiting tool.

J. Anyone who ends up playing any of these teams...

K...Do I have to go on?

As I stated in the DIII thread, as much as Id like to say "let them stay" because of tradition, this is an all or nothing vote. You can not let hockey stay up at these 3-4 schools named and offer scholarships....and not let other schools athletic teams in other sports stay up. Plus lets face it, take away all the paid players at these schools and you have pretty much an above average to decent DIII school. Without the Willie Mitchells and the half dozen other paid players, Clarkson would be a competitive D-III team, but probably wouldn't have been able to stand still on water against top D-I schools....they had a hard enough time doing that with them.... The ECAC hasn't proved too much over the past years there are a competitive league, let alone on a consistent basis....such the E-Z AC stigma. If I had a choice I would yes, let them stay in D-I just because I fear all the $%itching and whining that will come once the decision is made. I know not all D-I posters out there feel D-III is inferior to the all mighty D-I, but if this thing does go through, and I hope it does not...I hope all the fans at Clarkson, SLU, RPI where ever...will give D-III a chance. You never know, you might enjoy it. It might be a little different watching games with teams who are at school to go to school and play hockey because they love to, than at a school where they get paid to.

Another thing was brought up was the $$$ teams like SLU and Clarkson will loose....well think of it this way, you will be saving all that scholarship money.

[TimU]

Originally posted by PSUChamps2001
A. Elmira- If either or all these schools join the ECAC-West Conference if will give the ECAC-West a chance to gain an auto-bid into the NCAA's. Thus giving Elmira an extra recruiting tool, which will bring in (hopefully) better players, which could lead to more wins, which could lead to National Titles, which could lead to more fans, which leads to more $$$.

Let's hear it for purity and athletic competition for its own sake.

Originally posted by PSUChamps2001
You can not let hockey stay up at these 3-4 schools named and offer scholarships....and not let other schools athletic teams in other sports stay up.

What? Yes, you can. You've been doing it for as long as Division I and Division III have existed. There's a very good reason why it's always been done, and it has NOT led to any of the problems feared by the supporters of the proposal.

Originally posted by PSUChamps2001
if this thing does go through, and I hope it does not...I hope all the fans at Clarkson, SLU, RPI where ever...will give D-III a chance. You never know, you might enjoy it. It might be a little different watching games with teams who are at school to go to school and play hockey because they love to, than at a school where they get paid to.

Like that dolt and mercenary named Joe Juneau, right?

THIS is exactly what makes fans of SLU, Clarkson, RPI, and CC tear out our hair. The University President whose letter was quoted below inferred the same thing when he said that athletic scholarships divert money away from aid to deserving students.

What on earth makes you think that SLU hockey players don't cherish their education and love to play hockey as much as any Division III player? This statement is borderline insulting. Take a look at the four hockey schools affected by this proposal, and compare them to the D-III schools that you believe it will help (by making athletics more profitable, no less). How can you suggest with a straight face that hockey-playing students at RPI or SLU are less committed to their educations than the average hockey-playing student at Potsdam State or Plattsburgh State? That is patently ridiculous. Give me a break.

[PSUChamps2001]

Originally posted by TimU
What on earth makes you think that SLU hockey players don't cherish their education and love to play hockey as much as any Division III player? This statement is borderline insulting. Take a look at the four hockey schools affected by this proposal, and compare them to the D-III schools that you believe it will help (by making athletics more profitable, no less). How can you suggest with a straight face that hockey-playing students at RPI or SLU are less committed to their educations than the average hockey-playing student at Potsdam State or Plattsburgh State? That is patently ridiculous. Give me a break.

Exactly my point, so why should it matter if they get paid then? If they are there because they want the education and to play hockey, then they shouldn't have to get paid to go there. Thus they can stay at the D-1 level and compete.

[PSUChamps2001]

Originally posted by TimU
Let's hear it for purity and athletic competition for its own sake.



What? Yes, you can. You've been doing it for as long as Division I and Division III have existed. There's a very good reason why it's always been done, and it has NOT led to any of the problems feared by the supporters of the proposal.





So your saying that Clarkson hockey, who has history with other D-1 teams, should be allowed to stay....but a team like Hobart lacrosse, who Im sure has made rivals and history related foes, should be made to stay down? That's my point, I dont think anyone should, but if it goes through...it won't be fair to let hockey stay up and everyone else have to move down. And yes I intend on signing the petition to keep them up!

[TimU]

Originally posted by PSUChamps2001
Exactly my point, so why should it matter if they get paid then? If they are there because they want the education and to play hockey, then they shouldn't have to get paid to go there. Thus they can stay at the D-1 level and compete.

No. Because there are a whole bunch of other very good schools that also allow them to get a good education, AND play hockey at the highest level, AND have it paid for. If you've worked harder than the vast majority of kids both at school and at hockey your whole life, and you can attend a good school, would you: go to one where the hockey is below your level and you have to pay a fortune; one where the hockey is at your level and you have to pay a fortune; or one where the hockey is at your level and you can go for free? If you're going to go to a great school and get a great education, what is wrong with wanting to go where you can make the most of your athletic talent?

edit: Hobart is Division I in lacrosse, no? Not only that, but when they moved, they moved to make the most of their real traditional rivalries. Do you think that the Hobart/Alfred game was a big deal back in the 80s? Hobart's big games were against Syracuse and Hopkins. When I was in school, St. Lawrence LOST to Hobart 13-7 once, and the SLU players celebrated like they'd just won the national championship.

[Ralph Baer]

A. Elmira- If either or all these schools join the ECAC-West Conference if will give the ECAC-West a chance to gain an auto-bid into the NCAA's. Thus giving Elmira an extra recruiting tool, which will bring in (hopefully) better players, which could lead to more wins, which could lead to National Titles, which could lead to more fans, which leads to more $$$.

Most likely the ECAC West would lose Hobart to the UCAA.

B. Manhattanville- See A, but change Elmira to Manhattanville.

See A.

C. RIT- See A but change Elmira to RIT

See B.

D. Utica- See A but change Elmira to Utica

See C.

E. Hobart- See A, but change Elmira to Hobart (and add "new rink" with more$$$$.

They'd get killed. :D

F. Neumann- see A, but change Elmira to Neumann.

See D.

G. Plattsburgh- Use to have games against SLU, RPI, Clarkson. Being only an hour away could draw in some big numbers of fans...making more $$$$.

RPI has only played them once.

H. Potsdam- The Bears have a new coach, and will be able to use games against Clarkson-SLU as recruiting tools. What team wouldn’t want to play at a rink like Cheel? (Minus Middlebury and Norwich)

I. Oswego- Could be in the same conference as SLU-Clarkson-RPI. Great recruiting tool.

Won't happen because, there'd be a UCAA.

J. Anyone who ends up playing any of these teams...

Why?

K...Do I have to go on?

You haven't started yet. ;)