What The Holy Hell Is Going On?

[verybdog]

Mark Zandi, chief economist at Economy.com, estimated the losses
to the economy in September alone from the attacks at more than $25 billion, led by $4.8 billion in losses at airlines and $4 billion at hotels.

Now you guys are talking about how to make the air travels safe again. But all efforts and resources spent on these safty measurements are basically going to be wasted, no matter what you do IMO. Why?--because the terrorists probably won't do the same trick for a very long time. When Americans start to complaint about the restriction or curtailments of their freedom, everything would be going back to the old way. Now the Congress had poured billions to bail out the air line industry. That also needs to be counted as taxpayers' loss. How about the side-effects in the general economy? The economy of this country has been the biggest victim since 9.11. Layoffs, halt of consumers and econmic activities, etc...But the defense from this kind of internal attacks basically is almost impossible--there are so many ways to inflicting havocs on the population and properties, that it would be very easy to cause billions of billions dollars of damage to this country any time. Merely to react to is not enough to save us from that.

That said, I'm not suggesting that nothing needs to be changed. But America way's of life in personal freedoms should be preserved as is. Otherwise, these terrorists' goal would have been accomplished.

[rufus]

two unh heavyweights slugging it out toe to toe. never thought i'd see the day. where's the ppv?

[Chuck Murray]

rufus ... don't get too cranked up about it. This happens maybe a couple of times a year, and it's always been done above board. I always just hold my breath, and hope Bobo doesn't unleash his lethal arsenal of withering sarcastic quips - the ones I SO enjoy watching him use against our mutual adversaries. I almost gave him an opening with that "spotted owls" quip, though ... :);):)

[Bobo]

Ralph, just sarcasm.

Chuck,

- We're better than a number of third world countries at educating our children? Yes, but I didn't realize that was the only standard we were trying to meet.

- Destroying the environment? What's the point of saving the country from terrorism if it's not worth living in anyway? Btw, America's downfall, if it comes, will be from within. Just like any great empire.

- Yes, there are thousands of less than pressing projects on the national budget. YET, they amount to an extremely small portion of the budget. I'm still wating for someone on this board to lay out EXACTLY what they want cut from teh budget, how much they think it actually amounts too, and why they want it cut. Then we'll have some fun.

- Agreed on the point that education is everywhere, all the time. But kids do spend 6-7 hours a day in school, so that part better be good. Btw, when did you become such an idealist? I can just see Billy Bob Trailertrash sitting down with little Billy Bob Jr. every night reading to him, "Daduh, rid me a buk." "O rihts, does you want Penthouse Forum or da Harley Davison catalog agin anight?" Once again, conservative wishful thinking, the way life should be is not always how it is.

rufus, strictly Marquis of Queensbury rules between Chuck and me.

[rufus]

i still wanna see this on ppv, though.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Chuck Murray
But our schools, health care and social programs as a whole are STILL THE BEST IN THE WORLD.

I need to put my $0.02 in on this. I wish it were true, Chuck, but it isn't. If the criterion is the ability to deliver services to the most people irrespective of their ability to pay then there are several European countries (e.g. the UK, Sweden, Switzerland) who do health care and social programs better than we do. I would also argue that there are other nations which do a better job at retaining students and providing them with an environment conducive to learning.

[Chuck Murray]

Originally posted by Bobo
Chuck,

- We're better than a number of third world countries at educating our children? Yes, but I didn't realize that was the only standard we were trying to meet.

I didn't say that ... you did. I said that overall, combining health care, social programs and education, the US fares better than pretty much everyone else.

- Destroying the environment? What's the point of saving the country from terrorism if it's not worth living in anyway? Btw, America's downfall, if it comes, will be from within. Just like any great empire.

I agree with you on the latter point (don't recall addressing the former BTW). Rome is the example that immediately springs to mind. Nothing lasts forever, there are no guarantees, and if the balance of interests is not watched carefully, it's inevitable that it'll happen sooner rather than later. Maybe not in our lifetime, but you never know ... :confused:

Besides, what control did I have over where I was born into this world? None. I'm one lucky bast!d, and I know it. I think we'd all do a lot better if we kept that in mind. :)

- Yes, there are thousands of less than pressing projects on the national budget. YET, they amount to an extremely small portion of the budget. I'm still wating for someone on this board to lay out EXACTLY what they want cut from the budget, how much they think it actually amounts too, and why they want it cut. Then we'll have some fun.

I don't doubt that for a second, Bobo (the "fun" part, that is). I'll take a pass on this one ... :D

- Agreed on the point that education is everywhere, all the time. But kids do spend 6-7 hours a day in school, so that part better be good. Btw, when did you become such an idealist?

I've never really figured out if I was an idealist, or just naive. I have tons of these closely-held beliefs about a wide range of things, but they don't necessarily fit into a simple ideological box. I know I'm not a strict Libertarian, and likewise I'm pretty far from being a liberal Democrat, which to my mind just gives too little credit to the individual to better his/her situation (more on that later). I tend mostly to gravitate towards Republican principles in general, but I'm not a knee-jerk conservative either. I guess I'm still leaning heavily towards being downright naive. :o

I can just see Billy Bob Trailertrash sitting down with little Billy Bob Jr. every night reading to him, "Daduh, rid me a buk." "O rihts, does you want Penthouse Forum or da Harley Davison catalog agin anight?" Once again, conservative wishful thinking, the way life should be is not always how it is.

Bobes, all I can say is that you would ***** yourself if I told you what my folks did for a living. Nothing to be embarrassed about, mind you. But let's just leave it that Pops is (well, he's retired, so I guess "was") a union guy through and through, and Mom still works office support jobs close to full-time as she approaches 70.

We grew up in the same house with my maternal grandparents, who were both born in Eastern Europe in the 1890's. I can't begin to tell you what kind of impact my grandfather had on me when I was growing up. His whole demeanor, his work ethic, his simple, direct honesty ... he is still is a source of total inspiration to me as I sit here 23 yrs. after his passing.

Y'see, my grandfather didn't speak a word of English until he took his family to the US after WW1. He didn't go to college in his homeland, and he spent most of his adult life as a baker. But in his own way, he built his own version of the American dream. He learned English from reading the local newspaper. He and his wife were married for 50+ years, they bought their own home in a working-class neighborhood, he worked hard for many years, and his eldest son went on to college and a career as an engineer. And when he finally retired, I was fortunate enough to be the one who filled much of the void of his now-free time.

He told me in his broken English about his experiences, and the things he learned, and what I would learn as I grew older. Still remember the day when I was 4 that he told me about death. I figured things like people never died. Boy, was that a shocker!! There was much that I learned from him after that about so many things, but just as if to ram the point of that initial discussion on life and death home to me, he passed away a few months before I graduated high school. It was the first time I'd experienced a death in the family, so even in death, grandpa was teaching me.

Every once in awhile, we see some post about who you would spend 5 minutes talking to IF you could pick anyone. There's no question in my mind, I'd pick my grandfather. The nicest thing anyone's EVER said to me was when a relative mentioned to me years ago that I reminded them of him. I smiled appreciatively, excused myself, found a quiet spot on the way home and just about broke down. To me, it was the ultimate compliment.

In my own way, I guess I live my life in the hope that someday, one of my kids, or my grandchildren - or anyone, really - might feel close to the same way about me as I did/still do about my grandfather.

Suffice to say that I don't buy into the concept that a person is limited by the outward trappings of their upbringing. And from someone who "lurnt to rit" at home from a bizarre combination of TV Guide and Popular Mechanics manuals halfway through first grade, and parlayed a dozen popsicle sticks into the best math SAT scores in my high school class, I think I've done OK.

Like I said before, I'm one lucky bast!d ... and I know it. Sorry to ramble - g'night!! :)

[HankWP]

Here is some feed back on the Cohen opinion piece... kind of interesting.

www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=121271

Henry.

[Ralph Baer]

Henry,

Thanks for posting the link.

[Bobo]

Chuck,

There's a huge difference between blue-collar, working class people and trailer trash. An absolute world of difference. One is what's right with this country, the other is part of what's wrong with this country.

And like Lou said, we should be comparing our health and education systems to Sweden, Holland, Denmark, etc. not Sudan, Syria, and Pakistan.

[walrus]

Holland is a good example. Their tax rates are high, social programs are in place and yet they are one of the world leaders in growth of GNP. Interesting country for sure:).

Chuck
Help me out on your Dads employment comment. my guess, union man, must be a democrat? and look at his son, a republican?. Just wondering

[Rodentsrule!]

Originally posted by rufus


we may need more money spent on intelligence, but we also need those people charged with analyzing and evaluating the raw data compiled to do a better job of it. i don't think you need a reminder of the problems that have come to light over the past couple years in our fbi and national security departments. possibly too many government beaurocrats sitting too comfortably in their jobs for too long?

I am in total agreement with this statement.

However, I guess I was not specific enough in what I meant. Thanks to Presidents Ford and Carter we have very few intelligence operatives working in the world. Electronic information gathering is not adequate to combat what the U.S. faced on 9/11. People do not want to accept the fact that in order to prevent such tragedies, the U.S. may have to "get in bed" with some pretty unsavory characters. I think this ties to your comment about the beaureaucrats. Why didn't someone recognize the need for "human intelligence" before this happened? It was recognized that these people were a threat.

I understand that the situatuion and our problems are more complex than what I outlined. But I certainly also have a problem with Tax and Spend liberals, whom, whenever there is a problem immediately say, "we need more money for this and that." Where is the accountability for the large percentage of the money they are already taking from the working guy.

While I'm not particularly interested in getting into a battle with Bobo or anyone else on this isssue, I must state that this is america, where we are all allowed to have different opinions, believe different things, and drive an SUV, Metro or whatever else you choose. I do not believe and will never be swayed to believe that the government knows best what to do with the money I work hard to earn, nor that the government should tell me how to live my life. Smacks of communism to me. Failed in the USSR and would anyone really want to live in PRC by choice as an average citizen?

[The Sicatoka]

Bobo:

US Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 3:

(Congress shall have the Power) To regulate Commerce with foreign nations, <I>and among the several States</I>, and with the Indian Tribes;

Maybe this is where the Government had/has a legitimate regulatory interest (most flights go 'among the several States') and has left itself opportunity for improvement. I can't disagree with that.

About civil liberties ... if I fly I'm getting on board a privately owned aircraft. When in Rome do as the Romans. If UAL/NWA/SWA/etc. says no (insert device here) on our jets my choice is conform to the private owner's request or drive.

About Seabrook et al: The design criteria for the containment buildings at such locations are very close to exactly what happened recently. :(

[Bobo]

Originally posted by Rodentsrule!


...this is america, where we are all allowed to have different opinions, believe different things, and drive an SUV, Metro or whatever else you choose. I do not believe and will never be swayed to believe that the government knows best what to do with the money I work hard to earn, nor that the government should tell me how to live my life. Smacks of communism to me. Failed in the USSR and would anyone really want to live in PRC by choice as an average citizen?

Opinions and beliefs are fine, actions are different.

I can't drive a car with no exhaust system - except maybe in Maine ;). I can't drive a car with no bumpers. I can't drive a coal powered car. There are restrictions. Tons of them. SUVs are wasteful and dangerous. They eat gas, and you can't see around them on the highway. They're a disgustingly selfish menace.

We give up certain freedoms for the benefit of society as a whole and the greater personal benefits that come from living as a community, not just lone individuals. That's not how it was in the USSR, that's how it is here, right now. It's this childish, "I can do whatever I want, whenever I want" idiocy that is the real problem. No, you can't f'ckhead, there is a price to pay for living as a society, and it's well worth it, try the alternative. Now grow up and act like an adult and use your freakin' head. (That was not directed at anyone here, just my way of making the point :).)

[RoyalTea]

originally posted by the Taliban
America wants to eliminate Islam, and they are spreading lawlessness to install a pro-American government in Afghanistan. This effort will not solve the problem, and the Americans will burn themselves if they indulge in this kind of activity.

"The Taliban also have cracked down on the remaining U.N. relief workers in Afghanistan, threatening to kill staff members who use computers or other communications equipment, U.N. officials in Islamabad said Monday."

translation: "please nuke us."


also, if the taliban says they don't know where bin laden is, and he recently sent a fax urging pakistanis to fight against the americans, shouldn't they be able to trace the fax and find out where he is now? if they didn't, wouldn't that be considered a hostile act?

[Bobo]

Anyone who watched that CNN special at 7:00 last night knows the Taliban are absolute barbarians. It was f'cking horrific. Worse than I even imagined. Absolutely brutual.

[Chuck Murray]

Originally posted by walrus
Chuck
Help me out on your Dads employment comment. my guess, union man, must be a democrat? and look at his son, a republican?. Just wondering

Believe it or not, Dad's always been a registered independent.

And for that matter, so am I. It's just been awhile since I voted for a Democrat, though ... :)

[Jim W]

Originally posted by Bobo
Anyone who watched that CNN special at 7:00 last night knows the Taliban are absolute barbarians. It was f'cking horrific. Worse than I even imagined. Absolutely brutual.

I unfortunately missed it. I wish I knew it was on. I do know that the Taliban are pretty bad people but haven't heard too many specifics. Any idea if they're planning on reairing it? I'll have to keep an eye on the schedule.

[Pal]

Originally posted by Bobo
Anyone who watched that CNN special at 7:00 last night knows the Taliban are absolute barbarians. It was f'cking horrific. Worse than I even imagined. Absolutely brutual.

That had to be the most gruesome video I've ever seen. That left me with a lot of images I'll never forget (the segment with those three young girls was absolutely heartbreaking). It's absolutely imperative that the US does something to take these guys out, whether that involves supporting the Northern Alliance or going in and killing them off ourselves.

[Bronco]

I am all for the end of the taliban, but before we support the Northern Alliance do we know anything about them besides they are fighting against the taliban?