What The Holy Hell Is Going On?

[jk]

Originally posted by Scott Murphy
Cutting off financial and logistical assistance is key and will require concerted action from our "friends" who have tacitly assisted these ********.

I can't speak to the truth of this, as I just heard it from a talking head, but it seems to ring true. Apparently it is not o.b.l.'s inherited personal fortune that finances this but instead proceeds from the opium trade. The Taliban takes a 20% cut from the poppy growers, and I think it's a healthy amount as Afghanistan supplies the majority of the world's opium.

So their financial resources may be impressive.

[HankWP]

In my opinion... just the fact that the Taliban-Afghanistan do not want to curb Osama Bin Laden as proved by protecting him from being hauled to a court speaks volumes of the Taliban's interests. Drugs or no drugs. I do not think that this last terrorist attack was terribly costly... most things were paid on via credit card... either way, I hope justice is quick and swift.

Henry.

[PCM]

Originally posted by Super WCHA Man
The reality is, however, killing civilians would make us no better than the terrorists themselves.

Realistically, you have to expect that some innocent people are going to die. We are fighting a foe that thinks nothing of using civilians as human shields and hides among the general population for safety.

I know that our military will do everything possible to avoid killing the innocent, but we shouldn't allow this potential to restrain the U.S. from doing what needs to be done to protect its citizens.

Remember, too, that the leaders of Afghanistan made choices that resulted in their country becoming the focus of world anger. They now have the opportunity to undo some of this self-inflicted damage and avoid a confrontation. If they instead continue to provide a safe haven for bin Laden and choose to fight, they will have the blood of innocents on their hands.

[Scott Murphy]

"Officially" the Taliban banned the growing of opium a while ago. But in reality the trade still moves from Afghanistan to the west.

Bin Laden and Co. has financial, logistical and intelligence support from other nations in the Mideast. He purportedly has banking connections in Qatar, UAE and Baharain, and probably Saudi Arabia too. Most of these nations do not have any transparency in their banking laws, so it is relatively easy for money to move from the Mideast to Europe and North America, and back again. As well, these people also receive funds from others sympathetic to their cause and united in their hatred of the west. Rich and poor give money to support these people, so pressing to hinder/eliminate funding sources is a key point to address. In this vein those nations who support terrorism are some of our closest "friends" in the region.

[HankWP]

I have a great interest and [some undergraduate] education in psychology... the people that commit these acts must be "nuts". Now, I know "nuts" is not a legit term for psychological therapy, however, these people must have been weak individuals, lost souls, who are brought together under the guise of religion, for an individual's personal use/abuse. No different than the Marshall Applegates of the world.

I wonder, what makes an individual commit suicide? Murder? Murder at a grand scale? Did the pilot who did the damage suddenly suffer a flight or fight dilemma? I doubt it, the manipulation of hate was already in place.

Faith is a belief, very psychological and some people would debate if it is real... faith is a powerful tool, just as good as it is bad.

Let's keep the faith.

Henry.

[Tom Foolery]

Not realted to all that's happened, but the timing must have freaked at least a couple of people out this morning:

Originally posted on Boston.com
LATEST NEWS: Portions of the Prudential Center are being evacuated due to an apparent fire on one of the upper floors. WHDH-TV (Ch. 7) reports that the fire occurred in an area where asbestos removal was being performed. According to reports, the fire does not appear to be serious.

[The Sicatoka]

One of the major networks (they all have blurred lately) was reporting on Saturday that there is some evidence that bin Laden has used western financial markets for monetary gain. They were reporting that he may have 'shorted' stock in reinsurance companies (the companies that insure the insurance companies) knowing that their stock would go down after these type events.

[Scott Murphy]

It's really nice to know who your friends are, who they'll be bringing with for this fight.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2001322341,00.html

[Tom Foolery]

Sicatoka,

Wouldn't that mean it's possible to determine which accounts belong to bin Laden's network and freeze those assests? May not be that easy, but it's a lead to follow. And couldn't they get him for "insider trading" as well?? ;)

[The Sicatoka]

TF: They got Al Capone (not that it's a close comparison) on (what was it?) mail fraud or tax evasion. I'd hope if bin Laden's guilty we could get him on more than a Securities and Exchange Commission violation.

The report said the money was going through various 'fronts' and 'laundering' operations so it would be difficult to prove absolutely. And most of the transactions occur outside the US.

[Scott Murphy]

I read that Bin Laden does have frozen assets in the US. At the very least, they could be seized and distributed to the victims and their survivors if he were sued here. Morbid thought, when I would prefer to see him hanging by his balls from the Brooklyn Bridge, but the same tactic was used against the Iranians and some of their cronies with success.

The Europeans have apparently started tracking his financial network and will probably try to freeze assets there as well, but given bank secrecy laws and the ease with which one can move money, it won't be easy.

[Got 6, Want More]

Ties to Harvard...perhaps....

>
>By ELIZABETH MEHREN
>TIMES STAFF WRITER
>
>September 17 2001
>
>BOSTON -- One brother is a graduate of Harvard Law School. Another owns
>swanky condos on the waterfront here. Another is an accused international
>terrorist--and one of the most reviled men on Earth.
>
>With more than 50 siblings and an enormous fortune, it is little wonder
>that the Bin Laden family has a global reach. But Boston is where Tuesday's
>terror began. And the Bin Laden ties here turn out to be tight.
>
>A $1-million gift "from the generosity of the Bin Laden family" promotes
>the study of Islamic law at Harvard Law School. At Harvard's Graduate
>School of Design, another $1-million donation from the Bin Ladens endows
>students and professors who pursue the field of Islamic art and
>architecture. Abdullah M. Binladen, a 1994 graduate of Harvard Law School,
>has offices in Cambridge, though he did not respond to telephone requests
>for comment. Another brother, Mohammed M. bin Laden, owns six units in the
>luxurious Flagship Wharf complex in Charlestown, close to where the
>Constitution is docked. The management of the building--where apartments
>range from $300,000 to $2 million--would not discuss any of the residents.
>The family surname apparently is rendered in different ways in English.
>
>The endowments to Harvard, made in the early 1990s, came from the Saudi Bin
>Laden Group, a collection of family members in Jidda, Saudi Arabia,
>university spokesman Joe Wrinn said. The Bin Laden family operates Saudi
>Arabia's largest and richest construction company.
>
>Though the grants to Harvard have come under scrutiny, "that group is in no
>way associated with terrorism," Wrinn insisted.
>
>In fact, he said, "they have disassociated themselves from Osama bin
>Laden."
>
>Indeed, the Saudi-based family disowned Osama bin Laden in the early 1990s
>because of his anti-Americanism and his extremist interpretation of Islam.
>In 1994, Saudi Arabia's government stripped his citizenship for the same
>reasons.
>
>Adil Najam, a professor of international relations at Boston University,
>said the action by Bin Laden's siblings was more than simple disavowal.
>
>"There is an active hatred relationship," Najam said. "The first thing they
>tell you is that they have no affiliation with Osama."
>
>The clan descends from Sheik Mohammed bin Laden. When he died in 1968, the
>family patriarch left behind more than a dozen wives in a number of
>countries--including Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
>
>The multibillion-dollar family business was built around massive
>construction projects at Middle East holy sites, including Mecca. A group
>of the oldest brothers runs the empire.
>
>Much of the family was at odds with the outcast brother even before he
>began his campaign of global terror, according to Najam, an expert on the
>Middle East. The original schism came because "he is an anti-monarchist in
>a family that is extremely monarchist," Najam explained. The family, in
>turn, bases itself in a country that is a strong monarchy, he said.
>
>The Bin Laden fortune is so huge that Osama's share often is estimated at
>$300 million. "Multiply that by 54. It's a lot of money," Najam said.
>
>The family amassed the wealth by serving as the Saudi king's preferred
>construction company, Najam said. Airports, roads and entire cities built
>in Saudi Arabia over the last half a century have had the Bin Laden stamp
>on them, Najam said.
>
>But within the context of multiple mothers and sibling groups scattered
>across various countries, "what it means to be a brother or sister may be
>somewhat different from what you or I may think," Najam pointed out.
>
>Intra-family politics are complicated, he said. "It's not always one big
>family under one big roof. Often there is a fierce sense of competition,
>and it is not unusual for those competitions to end up in physical
>violence."
>
>On numerous trips to Saudi Arabia, John Duke Anthony, president of the
>National Council on U.S.-Arab Relations in Washington, has visited the Bin
>Laden family.
>
>The brothers there long have distanced themselves from the terror suspect
>Osama, Anthony said.
>
>"If you think of this as a society that puts great stock in honor as a
>value, and does its utmost to avoid shame, he has dishonored and shamed the
>family in the perception, evaluation and judgment of his siblings," Anthony
>said.
>
>By extension, he suggested, funding Harvard--one of the world's most
>prestigious academic institutions--could be seen as a way to cast honor
>upon the family.
>
>"Look at it this way: In Islam, education is a highly prized value,"
>Anthony said.
>
>With such extensive resources, Bin Laden family members can afford to "live
>globally, rather than locally," said political science professor Robert F.
>Seibert of Knox College in Illinois.
>
>The concentration of colleges and universities could help explain why
>several brothers settled in Boston, said Seibert, author of "Politics and
>Change in the Middle East."
>
>Besides, he said, "they do have a coastal mentality. You find the Bin
>Ladens on the East Coast or the West Coast."
>
>But beyond philanthropy or real estate, the family has a less savory
>connection to Boston. Two former Boston taxi drivers have been identified
>as associates of Osama bin Laden. Bassam A. Kanj, a Lebanese native who
>lived in the Boston area for 15 years, was killed last year in northern
>Lebanon. Raed M. Hijazi was jailed in Jordan for threatening to blow up a
>hotel. Federal investigators reportedly have conducted interviews at the
>cab company where both worked.
>
>Not surprisingly, institutional Boston is uneasy about focusing on the Bin
>Ladens.
>
>At Harvard, spokesman Wrinn emphasized that the family has had no
>oversight--and in fact, no direct involvement--with either grant to the
>school. He added that, since the first gift in 1993 "and to this date, we
>have had no indication whatsoever that the money has had any connection to
>any form of terrorism in general, or to Osama bin Laden specifically."
>
>Should that change, Wrinn said, "Harvard obviously would take appropriate
>steps."

[HankWP]

IMO, the honor of the legit family making good compared to the outcast-outlier terrorist is a world of difference... sounds like the father controls the money... so it is not as though Osama gave directly representing himself and his band of terrorists... everything seems legit with the donation. However, everyone will dump on Harvard when they can, and now is a great time, in the spirit of nationalism, of course.

Conjecture: I suppose the father of Osama Bin Laden is guilty by association; therefore Harvard must be guilty of wrong-doing?

I thought I read, in this article, that the Bin Laden's do not assosicate themself to Osama... so I am confused as to the nature of the article... what is its purpose? Oh, I am not defensive because I am alumnus... but this very same issue came up in '95... after the OK City bombing, and I believe there was an article about it in the Harvard Magazine too.

Not to be B I T C H Y ... but your comment "ties to Harvard perhaps" implies that Harvard funded or approves of such an act... and that is not true... nor representative of the article and how it is used during this time... yes, there are Bin Laden ties... but even the article makes mention that it is the "good kids"...

Applying the same famly connection-logic... Ted Kaczinski's (sp) brother the one who turned him in to the feds, must be as guilty as Ted himself... right?

Henry.

[Handyman]

While this is not the time to act in character I understand...I had a special request for DJ Hand to play here in this thread. I would normally ignore...but this is very relevant so pardon my character acting for a sec...

This is DJ Hand here reporting from Minneapolis, where the mood is still somber but life is moving on. We here in the "Minne Apple" send out much prayer and love to those who have lost friends and family in this disgusting travesty. While I am usually quite jovial and fun, now is a time to mourn and remember. Here is a special request I got via AIM and is dedicated to everyone who is American...living or deceased...

I am proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free
I won't forget the men who died and gave that right to me
I'll gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today
there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the USA

God Bless everyone...and may those who wish to destroy us feel the wrath of a country scorned!!

[Got 6, Want More]

Henry,

No need to be defensive. I have no idea what the validity is of this article. I just posted it because earlier in this thread someone was saying that bin Laden's son went to or was currently attending Harvard. I would say it is dirty money no matter where it came from in the bin Laden family. The Saudi royal family, and many of the families beneficiaries, do not have a good history of human rights, of fair and ethical dealings, etc. They took billions from oil sales and ******ed it away and are now practically broke compared to earlier days.

I have no problem with Harvard, or any other institution taking money if they can put it to good use. But, just as Clinton was dragged down for accepting money from the Chinese, there should be some thought to the source. Just to draw a comparison, a few years back there were huge protests against companies that had investments in apartied S. Africa for the same reasons. Just something to think about!!

[HankWP]

I presume the article is legitmate... I just looked up Wrinn under HAA... post dot harvard.

Of course all money is tainted... tell me where ANY "old money" is not tainted... Jefferson? Kennedy?

Again... you say Bin Laden's son... like it was Osama that went to HLS... it is slightly misleading... yes, "a" Bin Laden went to HLS... is he a terrorist? Don't you think the feds would have scrutinized him under a microscope... brother of a terrorist? Are all Bin Laden's terrorists? Besides the Saudi's ... let's be honest here... who else has a bad rap of human right's and ethics during peace and war? Everyone... including America. Tehre will always be a special interest group protesting the governing body.

Hey - the money the family gave is not representative of Osama Bin Laden the terrorist, and the Bin Laden family made that pretty clear and explicit in the article... sorry to jump... but really... can you see why anyone would jump on that? The article is misleading... it is kind of like saying, "two terrorists stayed at a Newton hotel, Newton supports terrorists...".

Henry.
- - - -
Sorry, I am a touchy-tulip... nothing personal, chap.

HWP3

[Ralph Baer]

Has anyone else noticed the Eaglebunny/Newton1/Chris!!!! has not been heard from since last Monday?

[Sarumite]

Henry -

It's my understanding that the relationship between Bin Laden and his family is being investigated. In other words, it's unclear that they are as estranged as it may appear. If true, this would be disturbing, and I think you'd agree Harvard would have to take some action.

[Handyman]

Ralph,

I had noticed it, but dont know what to think about it. It is nice to not see the flaming but still makes you wonder...

[The Sicatoka]

Each time I read the title of this thread I keep thinking there was nothing 'Holy' going on .... except for maybe near Pittsburgh.

(Not aimed at you Hank. Just an observation.)