What The Holy Hell Is Going On?

[Craig P.]

Originally posted by Section96
It's 10:06 CST. I'm watching C-Span, and the House vote on military action is taking place. The Senate has already passed it's version 98 - 0. There is 1 Democrat who has voted against this resolution. All others, so far, have voted YEA. I want to know who this idiot is that voted NO, and his flimsy excuse of a reason for doing so. There ARE women in the House and Senate, you know.

HER excuse for doing so is that "she was reluctant to approve any force that could worsen the situation." (ABCNews.com) SHE is Barbara Lee, D-CA, and while I don't agree with her in practice, I do applaud her willingness to stick to her principles.

[walrus]

Driving around the Bangor Maine area yesterday, it was amazing to see the flags on trees, houses and cars. One guy had painted his car like a flag. One local TV station did a telethon Thursday evening and raised close to 100 grand for Red Cross. The Bangor area has approx. 100,000 people so I thought that was pretty generous. WKIT radio ran a promotion yesterday where one could donate money to hear a song. WKIT plays classic rock for the most part and people were asking for Dolly parton , johny Cash etc.. One lady payed 500 bucks for We are The World. WKIT is owned by Stephen King and he promised to double whatever the listeners raised. They were over 100,000 bucks last I knew. Most people are doing what they can to help the victims and their families.

[Ranger]

Originally posted by Craig P.
SHE is Barbara Lee, D-CA, and while I don't agree with her in practice, I do applaud her willingness to stick to her principles.

I wonder what her vote would have been if one of these planes banked into the San Francisco skyline?

[Randy May]

Originally posted by BCeagle

Declaring war and putting the country on a war time footing involves a lot of sacrifice and resolve. A war time economy may provide jobs but the cost would be monumental. You're talking about re-instituting the draft to have enough men and women in the arm forces for a protracted war.

I cannot imagine needing more than the 1,000,000 soldiers that we currently have even if we have to set up shop in multiple Middle Eastern Countries at the same time...especially if we receive any troops from UK, Russia, Australlia, etc etc. Someone detail how I'm wrong here.

[Melandry]

Originally posted by Ranger


I wonder what her vote would have been if one of these planes banked into the San Francisco skyline?

Please note that she's not against military intervention per se; she feels this particular bill gives the President too many of Congress' war powers. I don't think this vote reveals a lack of sympathy for the victims, or that it has anything to do with where or to whom it happened; as someone already mentioned, she's just trying to vote her principles.

[vicb]

Originally posted by Melandry


Please note that she's not against military intervention per se; she feels this particular bill gives the President too many of Congress' war powers. I don't think this vote reveals a lack of sympathy for the victims, or that it has anything to do with where or to whom it happened; as someone already mentioned, she's just trying to vote her principles.

And I for one hope her constituents vote her sorry ***** principles right out of office :mad:

[Chuck Murray]

I'm going to take a little bit of a chance here. I just tracked down the following column by the Boston Herald's Howie Carr, who is also an arch-conservative radio talk show host locally on WRKO, which I believe is syndicated to other areas of the country as well.

<a href="http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/carr09142001.htm">Howie Carr's 9/14/01 column</a>

Now, let me say a few things to preface my comments. One, I was looking to try to track down his column to see what he might have had to say about US Rep Marty Meehan, a local pol from Lowell MA who has appeared on Howie's show frequently in the past. Apparently Meehan was quoted in the local media with some critical comments questioning the validity of the threats on Air Force One, reducing that possibility to "political spin".

Secondly, I generally enjoy Carr's anti-Massport hackdom rants, which is a topic he has beaten (to quote Bobo ;)) "like a rented mule" over the years. Not being a MA resident, it's one of those things that I could read without getting too P.O.'ed, since it was *only* my non-resident state income tax funds being used to pay for such excesses. :(

And third - I'm not psyched with the timing of the column, which despite some qualifications ("Sure, maybe it could have happened at any airport ...", "Now, let's stipulate that the airlines themselves are - or were - supposed to provide security at Logan.") still comes across to me as a little bit too much on the "Monday Morning QB" side of the ledger for my comfort. I'm also not all that comfortable with some of the comments he's got in there belittling people on the basis of their age alone.

And lastly, the Commonwealth of MA has had a Republican governor in place for the better part of the last decade, so the "Dukakoid" reference towards the end regarding the Bulger incident is probably gratuitous and really uncalled for. There are more than enough pols on both sides of the aisle in MA state government abusing the "spoils system" at Massport, I'm sure.

OK - so having said that, and assigning no blame or guilt on any specific person, party, or organization for events which very well may have still occurred with different circumstances ...

... it is my ongoing belief that Carr does outline the misplaced and unfocused priorities that exist in *some* areas of the so-called public sector. Instead of a sharp focus on the public service they have been assigned to serve, whether it be the Massport "hacks" or the local FBI office, clearly the activities that have been going on at those agencies MUST raise issues as to whether *some* of these folks are deserving of the trust that the American public places in them.

I'm sure such problems exist in many, many sectors of life across the country. And I can't help but think that if we are EVER to regain respect for these public agencies in whom we all place so much trust and responsibility, priorities will need to be changed.

We need to take steps to ensure that the right people - the best, most qualified and dedicated people - are the ones who make the key decisions, and take on the important responsibilities. That the most qualified persons are placed in jobs, regardless of seniority or relation or any other offshoots of the political spoils system. "What you know" and "what you can do" need to take precedence over "who you know".

It's all about priorities. And in letting other factors gradually work their way into the systems of how we hire/appoint people to the various public sector positions out there - other than pure merit and ability to do the job effectively and responsibly - we have strayed from the overriding priority to have our public servants ready and able to do their jobs to the best of their abilities, and the best possible level of our expectations as well.

It was always said that anyone could grow up to be the President of the U.S. someday. With the shifts in our national focus, and the shading of our priorities over the years, I don't think too many of us believe in the truth of such a statement any more.

-----------------------------------

Maybe this type of thinking on my part is naive and idealistic.

But then again, there were probably more than a few folks 225 years ago who said and felt the same thing about those crazies in the Colonies who were dreaming of setting up a government "for the people, by the people".

No kings. No despots or dictators. A republican democracy with free elections of leaders. And a Bill of Rights to boot.

Our forefathers, naive and idealistic as they may have been, had their priorities straight. And their ideals have stood the test of time, despite any number of challenges to them, both internal and external.

Let us hope and pray that these ideals lead us through the latest challenges, and shine light on newfound yet renewed priorities to remind us of the things that are really important in life. May we never take them for granted ever again. JMHO ...

[Bobo]

Chuck, the only thing you forgot is "of the people". The government is US.

And to that point, I flew over 100,000 miles last year, I was in airports ALL the time all over the world, I knew what a sham our airport security was and I didn't even take the time to write a simple letter, to my Congressman, to Massport, to a newspaper. I'm not saying it would have solved the problems but we ALL knew about the problem and were too busy/lazy/indifferent to do anything. Enough letters/phone calls/editorials might have done something. And where was Howie freaking Carr last week? Beautiful, now he knows all and tells us there are problems. No $hit genius. It's time we, the people, took responsibility for the world around us and stop acting like children who just expect the powers that be/"our parents" to just handle everything.

And off the top of my head, I flew through about 15 airports last year, the security is EXACTLY the same in all of them, ****** poor. This is not a Massport issue, it's an "I'm too important/busy to get to the airport 3 hours early", "Cut the FAA budget, pay the security people $6.50/hr. I want a tax cut" issue. WE got the security we paid for. These flights origianted from Boston because Milwaukee doesn't have cross-continent, gas laden flights and isn't 45 minutes from NY, that is the ONLY reason it happened in Boston and not elsewhere.

(BUT, one of the airports I did fly through was Schipol, in Amsterdam. I didn't like lining up for 90 minutes to be interviewed individually by an imposing gov't security guard, but I wouldn't mind it now.)

[MavRick]

Originally posted by Melandry
Please note that she's not against military intervention per se; she feels this particular bill gives the President too many of Congress' war powers.

This doesn't appear to be true, according to the SF Chronicle. She says she doesn't think military action would prevent terrorism (which is the wrong question).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/09/15/MN118968.DTL

She'll be assigned to that same silly category of history as that woman who refused to vote for a declaration of war on Japan. I'm sure that was a "principled" vote too; it was simply wrong.

No biggie.

[Greyeagle]

Bobo/Chuck - It has been quite a while since I've travelled overseas and then it was limited to 3-4 European airports. If memory serves it seemed the guards were much more effecient than we see domestically. Are they military or government employees? They all seemed very well trained and much more observant and dedicated than the typical $6/hr part-timer at you local international airport. On a side note - Good for the NWA employees in Phoenix that blew the whistle on the poor security proceedures at Sky-Harbor.

It seems its time to turn airport security over to to the Federal government and have a branch similar to the US Marshalls or FBI running the show. I'm sure the non-tax posse will be all over this as not in the constitution blah blah blah. To this I have one thing to say: Drive.

[PCM]

It's been almost 10 years since I traveled through Germany and what was then Czechoslovakia. One thing you saw in the airports in Frankfurt and Prague were people in military uniforms walking around with sub machine guns. It seemed a bit extreme at the time, but no more.

[AdamW]

Originally posted by winger
Two things that have stood out in the past couple of hours. I was listening to oppie and anthony and they were talking to some people from philly, about a project called brotherly love, they were gathering goods for the rescue workers. A bunch of arab/muslim guys pulled up in a large truck, dressed in their traditional clothing and opened the back. It was filled with supplies for the relif effort.

I was there when that happened. Actually, I was carrying some supplies out of my car when I saw the reporter from Ch. 3 interviewing the one man - and she nearly broke down.

[Scott Murphy]

I remember flying into Heathrow and seeing the British police, real police not rent-a-cops like we have here, with MP5s and sidearms patrolling concourses and outside. The German airports were the same way.

BTW: can anybody remember when an El-Al airliner was successfully hijacked? Each flight has armed agents, the pilots are locked into the cockpit and the baggage holds are armored. Luggage is tested to ensure it does not carry explosives before it goes to the plane. I vaguely remember going through 4-5 security checkpoints at Tel Aviv a few years ago. I thought it was a pain in the *****, but I felt no fear of some clown with a bomb or gun killing people.

If the govt and airlines are really serious about security they are going to have to move from contracting the service to the lowest-bidder to a more concerted law enforcement presence on the ground and in the air. Air marshals and serious security are probably only the start.

I read that at Minneapolis-St Paul International the average turnover for security personnel was about 150%. Most of these guys make about $7-8 per hour, receive few benefits and put up with a raft of ***** from people in a hurry who view (ed?) their presence as an inconvenience.

[redeagle]

I don't have any details, but how about the report that large amounts of insurance company stock was shorted on Friday, September 7 in Europe. It seems these guys may have made a bundle on the drop in insurance stocks last week (presumably on European markets, since our's were closed). You would think this would be easily traceable, but maybe some sorts of fronts were set up to complete these transactions. We are dealing with a sophisticated foe, my friends. Anybody who knows more about this than I have any thoughts, insights?

[Husky1]

Anybody else hear that Iran is planning on closing its border to Afghanistan? Granted it's probably more to save themselves from a potential flood of refugees entering their country than anything, but it still comes as a bit of a surprise to me. Also Pakistan, in agreeing to all of the requests we made, is going to have some serious internal struggles, particularly if we ever have ground troops stationed there.

For the person who made the statement about their being a draft, I seriously doubt it. We have over 1 million soldiers in the army alone, which is enough to fight a war with someone the likes of China or Russia. I also think that the imminent military action will be more along the lines of an air offensive or special-ops type engagements, at least for the time being.

[Ralph Baer]

I was out bicycling today in Washington DC, and some of the Maryland and Virginia suburbs, crossing the Potomac at White's Ferry, north of Leesburg and then again at the 14th Street Bridge. It amazed me how many flags were everywhere, on houses, cars, and hanging from bridges and overpaths.

Everything seemed spooky. Every time I heard a siren I figured that something new had happened.

Washington Reagan National Airport is still closed although I have heard that planes since 4 pm are now leaving empty to be used elsewhere -- they are all taking off to the south, away from DC.

At Gravelly Point on the Mount Vernon bike path, is directly north of the main runway. Normally, there are a lot of people there watching planes take off a few feet over their heads (and getting deaf) -- it was deserted.

In Leesburg, VA, I saw a large gathering of people with flags, etc. I assume that this was something demonstrating a support for military action, but I can't be sure, as there seems to be about one parade of other celebration per month in Leesburg.

I decided not to see how close I could get to the Pentagon. The point were I passed closest has a view of an undamaged side.

Tomorrow, I am going to NYC for a week although I'll be much further for the scene of their disaster than I am here in DC.

[scsuboy]

<a href="http://www.geektools.com/mirror/coldleaf.org/thankyou.htm">Thank You</a>

[waterlover]

Heard on the radio today that NW said it would fire any employees trying to breech security as happened in AZ. Gee, makes me feel good that they don't even want to know how lax security is. I understand the point, don't want to alarm people, but come on! These people were just trying to prove a point and make flying safer for everyone.

[AdamW]

Originally posted by scsuboy
<a href="http://www.geektools.com/mirror/coldleaf.org/thankyou.htm">Thank You</a>

This was the greatest thing I've seen all week.

Thank *you* for posting it.

[Gollywobbler]

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say thanks to all who have posted here... this thread has been my source for information (I've always thought that the college hockey fandom has something over any other such assemblage) and opinion. I haven't visited the site since probably July (a Sox/Yankees thread, I'm sure), but as the events unfolded Tuesday, I just knew where I should go on the web to hear what warm, intelligent, caring Americans had to say. Though I'm more of a lurker than a poster, I do feel a kinship with you all. This site and this post have been a bit of a crutch for me all week.

One of my friends in the Pentagon sent me a very moving, disturbing powerpoint slideshow made up of images from Tuesday. Email me (calderwoodm@yahoo.com) if you'd like me to send it to you on Monday (it's about 1 MB).