What The Holy Hell Is Going On?

[PCM]

Originally posted by Bobo
What happened this week has been possible since the advent of commercial air travel, as in for the last 50-60 years, WE, right left liberal conservative, have done nothing but rely on luck for all of that time. Idiots.

Bobo, you are right.

[Husky Fan Roy]

If Bush would have been president for the last 8 years and Clinton now I would have been saying the same thing about Bush. This is not to start a left and right arguments, you are doing that by saying that is my objective.

If you can't admit that things were taken way too lightly the past 8-10 years you are blinded by partisanship. I think Bush Sr. made a terrible mistake by not being more aggressive during Desert Storm. Like I said it is easy to point that out in hindsight, I just want to make sure that no matter who is president learns from that from this day forward.

[The Sicatoka]

Bobo is right on this point: What happened to the Marine barracks in Lebanon was under Reagan's watch. The differences? Where and how, but those are minor when you consider that it is the <I>same message</I> being sent to us by terror groups.

<B><I>We</B></I> haven't dealt with this.

About this in-fighting: How do we know that Mr. (and I use that term loosely) bin Laden, et al, isn't <I>expecting</I> us to do our standard political left-right in-fighting as we are so prone to do?

A common resolve to deal with a long, unresolved problem is what is needed.

Can we still muster common resolve against a foe that doesn't give a rip about our in-house issues?

Apparently Bobo, I've taken an inhale and exhale in the last few minutes. ;)

[PCM]

I have to agree with Handyman that I was really stunned when there wasn't a stronger reaction to the bombing of the USS Cole. I'm not solely blaming the Clinton administration for this, but the public, political leaders and news media seemed more than willing to put the incident behind us as quickly as possible. This should have been a warning shot.

[mr_husky77]

For those who haven't seen this, here's something proving that even in America, some people don't get it yet:

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html">God Gave U.S. "What We Deserve", Falwell Says</a>

Once again, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have proved they are complete idiots, morons of the highest degree. They need to have some sense beaten into them. :mad: In a time when the U.S. needs unity and sharing, these two are trying to push their agenda of hate and intolerance. They use the same arguments that some terrorist groups do, shielding what they truly are behind a mention of God. It sickens me. :mad: :mad: :mad:

However, there is a good side to all this, and it is represented (for the most part..some ignorant trolls are present) by this <a href="http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=34709834&m=4640913172&p=1">thread, entitled "Thank You"</a> at another forum I frequent. The images and words from around the globe, expressing remorse, sorrow, pain, and solidarity drove me to tears, and renewed my faith in mankind. Please read this, and pass it along.

I hope and pray that this tragedy changes some things in this world and this country. Perhaps, with the loss of life of people from so many nations, of so many ethnic and religious backgrounds, everyone will realize that we are truly one race on this earth: the human race. That these divisions we set up amongst ourselves do not diminsh the fact that we are all brothers and sisters, and that terror and hate effect us all in the same way. We must work together to fight this, and to stop its spread. With the world united, and working as one, we can drive out these cowards, who strike at innocent people, and secure peace and a chance for all to better themselves.

Yes, I am being idealistic, and I know it probably won't happen. But these thoughts comfort me, to know that they have not died in vain, that there will be something positive to emerge from this. It is a hope, but one that allows me to move forward through this, and see light at the end of what turned into a very dark, very long tunnel Tuesday morning.

I hope that all of you are well, and that your families and loved ones are also. If not, my condolences and deepest sympathies go out to you. :(

[gcast]

Yhe one thing you can be sure that this situation caused is the release of all the Hawks in Washington.Bob Barr has called for everything but the re-instatement of the draft..
The congress of the US is going to give GW etraordinary powers let us pray to God the he uses them judicicially(spelling).
We as a nation have gone through quite a bit in the last few days and i am proud to find myself in a group of fine Americans as you all are.

God bless you all and keep you safe.

Gregg

[Scott Copley]

People blaming this administration or that one are bona fide idiots. Facts are facts about that. The way to root out the terrorists is to put troops on the ground. Dropping bombs in the hopes of hitting people won't do the trick. For the last 20 years, despite the Beirut's or USS Cole's, no President has had public support to commit troops on the ground to a long-standing engagement to find these people. That's the same reason why Bush didn't go after Saddam, or Clinton didn't invade Serbia. In a democracy, the will of the people wins out over the long haul. Now, with people justifiably wanting action, you do have that groundswell of support, giving this Bush an opportunity. However, to blame previous administrations for not doing enough is just plain stupid.

[Husky Fan Roy]

Originally posted by Scott Copley
However, to blame previous administrations for not doing enough is just plain stupid.

Ya, if they actually tried to do something about it. The USS Cole is a perfect example. You did not hear political figures talking about retaliation and terrorism as a major thing. It was taken lightly. Future administrations need to learn from this.

I am 100 percent in agreement with you about putting troops on the ground.

[puckangell]

Originally posted by Jim W

That said, I still think we need to make Afghanistan pay for harboring Bin Laden for so long. They knew he was a terrorist and they knew he had orchestrated many prior terrorist attacks. Yet they did nothing. Despite their comments that they oppose terrorism, they are secretly "high-fiving" each other about Tuesday's events. They need to pay and pay dearly to send a message that we won't stand for state supported terrorism. The harder it is for terrorists to find a base of operations, the harder it will be for them to organize any substantial terrorist attacks.


I have to agree with this thought....make the Afghanistans pay for what they are doing...harboring a known terrorist is one of the worst acts they could do....sitting in my Religion class today, my prof. made comment about this particualar situation....she was talking about how Afghanistan is expressing condolences and whatnot to the US but still not offering to turn over Bin Laden, the reason being.....$$$$$$$.....Bin Laden is a multi-millionaire, if not billionaire (I'm not totally sure which one it is)...anyways Bin Laden has been supplying Afghanistan with many things for hiding him and not turning him over....he provides the $$$ for much food and supplies....it is also apparently in the Koran that you do not turn over a visitor, even if they are wronging someone.....I do not know much about the Koran or the religion over there but it was a thought that I heard in class and thought I would pass it on....


Oh how I wish I could burn candles in my dorm.....I would burn it till the wick was gone and start another immediatly thereafter.....however since I am unable I will keep a candle burning in my heart and will get outside tonight and burn one bright!!!


America will live on....through pain and sorrow we will prevail....God Bless America!!!!

[Greyeagle]

Fallwell's a putz.

For those of you who haven't seen this, here is a link to William Safire's column from today. It appears the SS and VP strongly discouraged Bush from returning to DC. I would be especially interested to get Rangers (I'm not trying to start a flame war - I seriouly am curious of your opinion.) reaction to this and its accuracy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/opinion/13SAFI.html

[HankWP]

... I heard that the candle vigil was at 7 PM Eastern Time...

... I e-mailed the board admin the other night, asking the board admin to place this thread in the "Hall of Fame" archive... when things quited down. I made this request because we all really banded together, all differences were dropped as we sat shocked on Tuesday... I truly figured that months or years from now, we'd be able to look it over, to re-read it what we were thinking and fearing... everyone must admit, we documented history...

PLEASE, LET'S NOT GET ANGRY WITH EACHOTHER OVER OUR OWN OPINION OR POLITICS... if the Sen/Reps can drop the swords and quite finger-pointing, so can we.

Henry.

[verybdog]

"Television evangelists Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, two of the most prominent voices of the religious right, said liberal civil liberties groups, feminists, homosexuals and abortion rights supporters bear partial responsibility for Tuesday's terrorist attacks because their actions have turned God's anger against America."

Let me make it clear, I totally disagree with them. No, those things (that I don't like) are not what had caused the terrorists to attack America. (Those are just the things that make America morally insane).

It is the America's foreign policies that are the ones to be blamed.

[HankWP]

...oh, also, as a point of interest... on WGBH tv2 "Frontline" journalism series, the topic was Osama Bin Laden... the President of Sudan reproted that Bin Laden did not have that much money - only 3 - 5 million... not the 300 million others report... FYI: Bin Laden sought refuge in Sudan for a few years.

Henry.

[Bobo]

Are you people really comparing what happened to the Cole to what happened this week?

17 Navy personnel on a warship in a foreign port versus thousands of civilians in downtown NYC? A bomb laden rubber raft versus 4 hi-jacked commercial jet liners? Both are tragedies but they aren't even remotely comparable. And say what you will but nothing happened during the Millenium celebrations, despite attempts, and that was Clinton's watch. This is asinine.

We have absolutley no idea how many attacks have been thwarted, we only see the failures.

(And to cite Newt Gingrich as a source? Thanks, you can have your credibility back when you get done with the literacy classes.)

[HankWP]

Originally posted by Bobo

We have absolutley no idea how many attacks have been thwarted, we only see the failures.



I have to agree with Bobo on this one... not starting a fight, but as you may have read from responses below.... the media picks up the negative... the media has a moral obligation as well as an ethical one to report the truth... well, the media is also a business... ratings, money, etc. However, this time is different... many commericals have been dropped, entertainment is on hold... this is unlike anything we've seen in the past... pop-culture wise that is.

Again, being ex-Navy and handling classified material myself, there is a boatload of stuff that goes one that is not for the general public's eyes... nor would you want to be, as it may incite fear and violence based on ignorance... soem things are better not known... I think it was former Navy SEAL CDR Marchinko that said, "You sleep safe and well because we are on the job"... there is a lot of truth in that.

Henry.

[BUNU9801]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by verybdog

It is the America's foreign policies that are the ones to be blamed.

__________________________________________________ __

I have heard this remark sooooo many times this week....and each time I get sicker!!!!

The only way that American foreign policy would not anger anyone is if (1) there was no America or (2) if we didn't have foreign policy.

Look at the big picture and stop the self blame......America is not perfect, far from it, but thousands of people have died and this is not the time to debate whether we were on the right side in the past or whether America made the right decision.

All in all, if you can't be a proud American-BE A SILENT ONE!
:mad:

[Husky Fan Roy]

Originally posted by Bobo
Are you people really comparing what happened to the Cole to what happened this week?

17 Navy personnel on a warship in a foreign port versus thousands of civilians in downtown NYC? A bomb laden rubber raft versus 4 hi-jacked commercial jet liners? Both are tragedies but they aren't even remotely comparable. And say what you will but nothing happened during the Millenium celebrations, despite attempts, and that was Clinton's watch. This is asinine.

We have absolutley no idea how many attacks have been thwarted, we only see the failures.

(And to cite Newt Gingrich as a source? Thanks, you can have your credibility back when you get done with the literacy classes.)

No one is comparing the USS Cole to what happened on Tuesday. The USS Cole turns out to be a huge warning that went ignored. Lets hope that these "warnings" will be heeded in the future.

The Millenium celebrations is an excellent point to bring up. It was an excellent job. You know why? Because it was taken seriously and action was taken. When action is not taken things escalate and tragedies like Tuesday happen.

I think you need to put your love of Clinton aside, stop bashing former political figures and take an objective look at the situation, until you can do that you have no credibility.

[MikeM]

Originally posted by PCM
I suspect that most leaders of terrorist organizations are basically cowards.

I do think this is a key. The people committing the heinous acts clearly have been convinced that their death is something to look forward to. I am not sure that the leaders of the terrorists feel the same way. They are the ones doing the convincing, procuring the funding and then hiding out in the mountains.

By the way, is it just me, or does it make you even more angry that bin Laden hasn't worked a day in his life, was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, has never had to work or want for anything, and yet in his mind he is better than the rest of us who go to work every day for ourselves, our families and our world?

It is essential that the action to be taken ensures the death of bin Laden, be it as part of some military action or if he were to be captured, tried, sentenced and executed. Strictly from the standpoint of removing this threat, as I have noted before, he and his group have an air of invincibility around them because he has escaped attempts on his life several times before. It appears to his followers as if God is indeed on their side.

Of course his death will likely get others riled up, but you have to cut off the head of the organization to have a good chance at really wiping it out. And this goes for his lieutenants as well as leaders of any other terrorist organizations.

Again, demonstrate weakness as we have done before, or an unwillingness to finish the job, and the enemy will take advantage of the opportunity. Thus far they have banked on the idea that we would not do much in response and thus far they have been correct.

Unquestionably, there should not be partisan finger pointing or looking for blame. As a nation we have been lax in our responses and attention to security. As a nation we have to change that. But it is our history, we make mistakes, but we learn from them.

I personally believe that the end of the Cold War brought the feeling that there was less of a threat than there was before. I think that is understandable. But now we should be well aware that this threat is much more insidious and dangerous than we thought, and perhaps more so than the Red Scare of the 1950s and so on. We always worried about the Communists invading and a war being fought on our soil. Well, the invaders are here, we don't know who they are but we know they are here. Infinitely more worrisome than concerns that the USSR was going to cross the Bering Strait.

At any rate we always learn and we have to do the same here.

I agree that Yeagley goes too far in his comments, especially with what he says about the "left". He also is wrong with regard to Bush because 24 hours after the attack Bush was calling it an act of war and his cabinet was following his lead. Bush did not say this on the first day, but I suspect he wanted to make sure they understood what had taken place, and also the reaction on the first day was more related to sorrow at what had happened and what was going to be done to ensure the safety of the citizens in the immediate future. So Yeagley is off base, but as some have said perhaps his anger can be understood, we all react in different ways.

I will say that the people I consider the most reprehensible other than the attackers are those who claim that in some way this was deserved. I would be more than happy to handcuff them to a chair and force them to watch the interview ABC ran last night with CEO Howard Lutnick of Cantor Fitzgerald, which has lost 700 of their 1000 employees, and then ask them to tell me how these people deserved what happened to them.

I suppose that Germany and Japan were also justified in their actions 60 years ago and the innocent people they slaughtered somehow deserved it.

Falwell and Robertson we already knew were truly reprehensible and sick human beings, but isn't it more obvious now than ever that they have more in common with the terrorists than with us? Both have co-opted a peaceful religion for their own political ends. Both claim to know what God wants and that it involves the death of innocent people. I'm sorry to tell you this, Jerry and Pat. Your god doesn't exist. Close up your 1-900 numbers and start making an honest living like the rest of us.

[Scott Murphy]

As I walked in a while ago, the church bells were ringing in long mournful tolls. A number of interfaith services are going on with parents taking their kids out of school to attend. Unreal.

Fortunately, I didn't see Robertson or Fawell on the way.

[jk]

A few things:

I think the idea that our retailiation could further inspire their fanatics to martyrdom gives too much credit to their fanatacism. The most fanatical of the bunch obviously are willing to die for their cause, but I'm not sure many others are so excited about it. I think most of them are just people, looking for their next meal, lookin' for love, whatever. Not looking to die an ugly death, to not be there for their family. So I think if we send a wicked message - this activity will result in your ugly death and others - that it would have some value as a deterrent to many potential future terrorists, most of whom really don't want to die. The most fanatical of all are gonna be looking to F us up and die trying whether we retaliate with vigor or not, but perhaps removal of the next level of support would hamper their efforts.

I reach a steady boil when I think of the leaders of this thing watching it go down on CNN on their satellite dishes, having a good ole time.

I read somewhere, sorry no link as I can't remember where, a short interview with the former head of the successor entity to the KGB. He basically said the US would fail if it went into Afganistan to get b.l. I'm paraphrasing, but he said something like - you dump a trainload of explosives in Afganistan and kill three militants. There's no way they'll get b.l.