Div 3 vs Club

[BernardtheSniper]

I beg to differ with your answer. Many teams that are in the club league are simply there because their school cant afford to have a Div 3 budget. There are many club teams that can beat a lot of div 3 teams day after day. Just because a team is labeled "Club" doesnt mean the level of play is any different. Take Life Univ for example, their roster is filled with Canadians who come down here and play for them even though its a club team. Westfield State has been recruiting div 3 calaper players for three years now in the hopes they would have been accpected into the NCAA Div 3. Sure the top div 3 teams would roll over a lot of club teams but thats about it. The only difference i have ever seen is in the lower level club teams where a lot of the kids are just out there to have fun. You give any of these Club hockey teams the funding and i guarantee you that theyll be extremely competive in the Div 3 level.

[Wardy]

I'd bet a large amount that Penn State's club hockey budget may be double the average buget of you're average varsity DIII.

[BernardtheSniper]

Penn State has been a club team for as long as i can remember. Many of the big schools such as Penn State, Arizona, Illinois, and Deleware all have extremely high budgets, but look at the size of the school and the teams they play. Those schools can afford to have such a incredible budget for a club sport. They travel cross country sometimes just to play a few games. They take buses to all road games within distance and have equipment just like a Div 1 or Div 3 NCAA team would. But step down one level to the Div 2 ACHA and look what u have, many of the teams in that league pay to play. The school contributes somewhat but it is mostly up to the players to raise the money neccesarry for the upcoming season. Does this make a Div 1 club team better then a Div 2 team? Definitely not. The only reason a lot of schools stay in the Div 2 league is because of travel costs in the Div 1. Ive been lucky enough to play against many of the Div 1 ACHA teams and there wasnt much of a difference between us ( a Div 2 team) and them. Recruiting may be easier with a rink on campus and new equipment each year, but the level of play is basically the same.

[douglfreeman]

The same goes for DII club vs DIII club. From my experience at Georgia, we had very little school funding - our money came from player dues, merchandise sales, and a few donations. Georgia Tech, moving to DII club this year, has a much larger budget. I don't know how much of it comes from the school - probably not too much since it is a state school, but they get money from somewhere. I think the biggest difference is in travel - Tech plays many more games far away. Competitively, Tech was definitely a better team than Georgia, but not by a landslide.

Life University is a machine down there in GA...

[Tony24]

Hate to tell you but you're kidding yourself if you think club teams can match up with the majority of DIII teams. There may be a few of the WORST D3 teams that would get beat in such a matchup but that is about it. As a former college hockey player, i know that NO player grows up saying "I hope i play club college hockey." Every player shoots for D1 and if that doesn't happen, then they look at D3. Therefore, the skill in D3 is bound to be better. LCLub hockey, is for the most part, players that don't get recruited by either D1 and D3(although i realize that this may not be true in every case). I'm sure that there are some players that play club could play D3, just as I know there are D3 players that could play D1, the overall depth of such clubs teams is much worse. I guarrantee that most would get bundled by at least 90% of the teams in D3. BTW--A bunch of Canadians(as in "Life"University... wherever that is :rolleyes: ) does not a team make.
If you think the only difference between club and D 3 is simply the budget, you're kidding yourself.

[TCTornado]

Tony,
Did you bother to read the response to your first troll on the Michigan Club Team thread? He gave you a reasoned response with facts. Bernard is overstating the case, but I've seen Delaware and Penn State Play, as well as many New England D3 teams. I have no doubt that those two teams could beat many D3 teams. Midd,Norwich,RIT and other top teams-not too likely, though on any given day... And they are just the two teams I've seen of the 'top tier' of club hockey.

[Tony24]

TC-- no, i had not read that post before my reply. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
However, even after reading the responses(which were both well reasoned), I still disagree with the claim that MOST club teams can compete with D3 teams, unless they are bottom of the barrel D3 teams. I think everyone agrees that the top D3 teams would lay a good, solid whoopin' on many club teams so thats not the issue... what i was arguing about, however, was Bernard's claim that most club teams would compete with D3 teams. I have played with a number of players (through high school, college and other leagues) that have gone D1, D3, and club respectively, and i can say that there was a CLEAR division between the skill level of the players i know that have gone these three paths. Although i realize that this is a big generalization, i have seen enough players at the three levels to feel confident saying that their is clearly more talent(for the most part) with D3 players than the club players. My best example is that a guy on my high school team, who never made our varsity squad until his senior year (barely made the team was a 4th liner who never played) is now one of the leading scorers and captain on one of the better club teams in the country. I understand that there are some good teams and some good players that could compete with many D3 teams, but to put club hockey at the same level as D3 (which has been implied by some posters) is ludicrous.

[BernardtheSniper]

Tony24,
Let me start of by saying that i never stated "Most" club teams could compete with Div 3 teams. What i did say was the a handful of the top ten teams in each of the Div 1 and 2 ACHA Club could competelively compete against most Div 3 teams minus the likes of Middlebury, Norwich, etc. Those schools have almost as much recruiting power as a Div 1 school does minus the scholarships and some of those teams could play against some Div 1 teams.
For example, take Deleware, Penn State, Life, Westfield State, Navy, Illinois and put them up against a div 3 team such as Babson, Umass Dartmouth, etc and i guarantee you that you will see a very tight close game. Take a look at those rosters and they will look very much alike. Sure some club teams lack the talent to compete but for those handful of teams that are club and have a good history can sometimes recruit players just like a div 3 team. I played for a championship junior hockey team and was given a handful of Div 3 schools i could attend. All my team mates that went Div 1 werent any better then me but the politics favored them. Just take a look at the top club teams rosters and youll see what im talking about. Lastly as i said before in my last post, most of the div 1 club teams have high budgets because of the size of the school and the funding that is available. Then look at the Div 2 club teams and youll see a tremendous difference. My team for example has to come up with most of the funding for the season through fundraising and player contributions. While some teams take buses to games, we take vans. Not exactly luxury but our team is extremely competitive. Over half of our schedule consisted of Div 3 ECAC teams and the other half of Div 1 club teams.

[joecct77]

Bernard,

I have to disagree on a top ACHA Div 1 club playing competively against an NCAA Div 1 team. I saw the ACHA Div 1 championship @ Laurel this past year and have seen my share of Div 1 varsity hockey. Sorry -- they don't compare. I also really wonder about most of NCAA Div 3.

Where the Penn States of this world may be competitive is against the lesser teams in the ECAC-Northeast. I also think that an annual exhibition between PSU and Lebanon Valley College would be a neat draw for Central PA. LVC should win, but it would an interesting game.

I think that some of the posters forgot that if PSU, Arizona State, Iowa State and/or Delaware went varsity, they'd all be classified as NCAA Division 1 and could not play the Div 3 school in games that count towards their NCAA tournament qualification.

[BernardtheSniper]

Might wanna read the posts one more time. No one has ever mentioned anything about a Div 1 club team beating a Div 1 Varsity team. This post is about Div 1 and 2 club teams, a handful at most being able to compete against most div 3 teams. Thanks for informing everyone though that a Div 1 varsity team could beat a div 1 club team. Im sure it was very hard for u to come to that conclusion. Im just trying to state my opinions on the top club teams and Div 3 Varsity.

[MikeMidd]

Question from someone who knows NOTHING about club hockey:

How much recruiting can club coaches do? Having checked out a few club hockey websites, a lot of them have ways to contact coaches or forms for recruits to fill out. Do club teams tend to have any pull in admissions? I'm thinking that at schools where there is also a varsity program (like Michigan, Cornell, Colgate, etc.), the club team doesn't get too much help in that regard?

Seems like some of these schools could consider a move to NCAA DI hockey - are there any likely prospects, maybe among major universities like Syracuse, Illinois, Indiana, etc?

- Mike, Middlebury '01

P.S. There is something REALLY strange about looking at a hockey jersey with the UNC logo on it, or the University of Florida logo on it. It just seems pretty odd. Though if you were into collecting unusual jerseys, some of these would definitely qualify.

[sloth2946]

I think I can add something to this debate here.

I have been in and around NCAA D-III hockey and club hockey. A lot of guys I play with in my men's leagues and against are current or ex-club players and I played in D-III myself. I can say that the line between the two levels is not too much related to skill as it is mental. Most of the guys who play club can't play D-III because they are too busy trying to get the big hits and play dirty then to actually play the game within the context of the game. There is also the dedication and consistency factory. Guys at the D-III level are more consistent performers and also more dedicated to the sport off the ice with training and so on. I have seen some terribly out of shape current club players.

But here is a great example of the differences between club teams and D-III teams. Scranton U. is technically a D-III team, but they play mostly a club schedule and they do pretty well against the club teams but when they come against the lower level D-III teams they get their assess handed to them for the most part.

Club hockey is glorified beer leagues, that is all it is. Just like in the beer leagues there are some really talented players, but for the most part they are filled with wannabes who think they could have been somebody or got screwed on the way or guys who just play mostly for enjoyment of the game because they know they will never be paid to play like 99.9% of the rest of the hockey playing population. There is nothing wrong with that, and I am not trying to slam club hockey, but it is in no way comparable save a couple teams to D-III.

[Wardy]

The problem with comparrison purposes is the world of low-level varsity D3 and upper-level club hockey can be murky and give you the wrong information to base your conclusions. University of Scranton is an example of this being a bad D3 varsity team that plays 90% of its games against club teams in the ECHA. With the possible exception of Towson the ECHA has turned into a lower-level D1 league since the departures of Delaware and Penn State to become independents. Scranton actually dipped even lower than club D1 last year in scheduling teams such as Wagner, Penn, Pitt, Liberty, Temple, and Lafayette with mediocre results. Meanwhile their varsity status you would think would dictate them playing the creame of the club hockey crop with Penn State and Delaware only being quick bus rides away. Scranton is a bad example.

The super eschelon of D1 club hockey (Penn State, Iowa State, Illinois, Ohio, Eastern Michigan, etc...) can compete with the mid-low level varsity D3 teams. These club teams opperate with just as many if not more resources as most D3 varsity programs, they employ the same offensive and defensive game systems and are recruiting out of the same recruiting pool. Considering that neither D3 or Club players are getting scholarships what the mid-level prized recruit is left to ponder is: "Do I play for a big school on a big campus and a lot or resources that plays top-level club hockey or do I play for a tiny school with a limited amount of resources?"

The super eschelon of D2 club hockey (Life, Indiana, etc...) could at the very least compete with low level varsity D3 teams. Most of these super eschelon D2's are only in D2 club either because of geography or politics and would give all but maybe 8 club D1's a great game. Using "varsity D3" Scranton as an example according to their schedule they were beaten by club D2 Liberty 9-1 last year and I think we can all agree that Scranton is a "low level D3."

[TCTornado]

Great Post Wardy. Question- I thought URI and Navy were 'decent' programs.

I would also refer Sloth to UM Clubs post in the thread he started in this forum as to why club teams in the Mid-west are strong.

And, just a student athletes choose DIII schools for various reasons even if they may have D1 hockey abilities, so too do kids with DIII or DIII+ abilities choose schools who 'only' have club teams for non hockey reasons...

[Wardy]

Originally posted by TCTornado
Great Post Wardy. Question- I thought URI and Navy were 'decent' programs.

On a national scale URI is seen as a diecent team and Navy is a mediocre-to-below mediocre team. Navy hasn't won the ECHA or made the national playoffs in years and until last year when they posted a good record but still didn't get into nationals they were always a sub .500 team with a reputation for losing big anytime they played the super D1's. Since Penn State and Delaware left the ECHA Towson has been the alpha program in the conference with Drexel and URI usually pulling up behind them.

[sloth2946]

Excellent points Wardy and TC, and I agree with all of them. I never said they couldn't compete, but rather that they would have limited success at best such as Scranton. As well as I said there is little difference in skill levels. And to use the murky waters analogy, once you get out of Jr's and high level HS hockey and so on the skill levels are pretty much the same with the other aspects of the game creating the differences.

[TCTornado]

Originally posted by sloth2946
Excellent points Wardy and TC, and I agree with all of them. I never said they couldn't compete, but rather that they would have limited success at best such as Scranton. As well as I said there is little difference in skill levels. And to use the murky waters analogy, once you get out of Jr's and high level HS hockey and so on the skill levels are pretty much the same with the other aspects of the game creating the differences.

Sloth,
Well, I disagree in that I feel that Penn State and, as Wardy and UM Club have said, about 20 other club teams could be middle of the pack overall in DIII, and middle of the pack or better in some leagues.

As I noted earlier, I've seen Penn State(1) and Delaware(3) play. As wardy notes, they're playing the same systems good DIII teams are, getting kids from the same sources, and based on the small number of times I saw them, would beat any number of NE D3 teams I've seen.

[sloth2946]

As we debate in the D-III forum, the NE is VERY weak.....Put them in the ECAC W. or SUNYAC and they are cellar dwellars.

[TCTornado]

I love such certainty. Usually it means you're a god in human form or an idiot...

[sloth2946]

Originally posted by TCTornado
I love such certainty. Usually it means you're a god in human form or an idiot...

Isn't is supposed to be human in God's form!??!? ;) :p At least that is what the book of Genesis says!